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Old 06-20-2020, 05:03 PM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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Location: Belgrade
Vehicle: 245
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Question D24 na problematic everything

Hello all!

May be you can help me. I have read almost a hundred threads, but this is my first writing




I have a Volvo 240 with D24 non turbo. Manual + OD. I will list problems here because there is alot Tried sorting out at bosch mechanic but nothing.


- No power but SERIOUSLY (top speed ON FLAT 110kph (thats 68mph), unable to climb hills literally, there is a steep hill on highway near me which i have to take in 2nd gear doing ~35kph! (~20mph)) Generally, the car cannot be driven continually over 85kph (52mph)

- A lot of smoke at all times except when warm idle (black, gray, blue, white... all of it depends on situation. Revving at neutral - black. Flatout on highway - white. Towing - all combined )

- All 6 injectors changed and pump reset by bosch mechanic (all 6 injectors were so bad they were literally like garden hoses), after that the TERRIBLE OVERHEATING stayed and the MPG dropped A LOT. Since then i have turned down the fuel screw myself and the consumption is better (but not as good as it used to be) and the overheating is gone completely, but the car does jump/stutter/cough when cold accelerating and the engine runs smoother when warm.

- Uneven power (suddenly at around 2.3k rpm it gains some power which dissapears later) I have a rev counter attached to alternator. Almost like a small turbo.

- NO cold start device installed. The lever is just in relaxed position, its not tied or anything. (no cold winters here really (a bit below freezing), and when below freezing i just start it with gas pedal pressed a bit, i also have manual glow plug activation)

- Low oil pressure (unrelated but annoying) (long time to build, 1bar when warm)

- Bad and uneven compression (driving 200k km with terrible injectors probably didn't help ) Also, the valves have never been touched, the mechanics sware they are hydro lifters and i must agree that there is no ticking, but we will know soon when i change the cover gasket)




I guess i should be timing the pump. Also, the guys swear they 1) set the pump at the bench correctly, 2) timed the pump with dial indicator (the first bit i believe, but the second not so much ) there are no better ones here so no luck

Is it ok to have no CS device and to pull the lever with something from outside if it gets really cold?

Also, how is this all happening. What can i do to sort this engine out the way it should be atleast at this age. It wasn't like this when it was installed bit it quickly became (i was a kid)

Ive heard stores from other owners how this engine in this car does 80-90kph in 4th gear on the same hill i go 35kph. I could go faster, but not even in 3dr gear. Also ive driven diesel mercedes benz 190D 2.5 and its like a race car compared to this engine.



BTW this car was driven by my father for 24years and now by me and will be kept at all costs

Last edited by mrvos; 06-20-2020 at 05:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-20-2020, 09:01 PM
RedArrow RedArrow is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Vehicle: 1986 Volvo 745 TD
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Hi!
Welcome to the forum!

Got popcorns? here`s a long answer

IDk where to start my reply but I also have a few questions...

It is very nice that you want to save the car that your father was driving. I wish I could do that too... even better, to rebuild it together with him.

about injectors...
What do you mean by saying that the injectors were changed?
Did you install new injectors from another car or did you rebuild your injectors that are in the car now?
Probably you sent your set of injectors to someone to rebuild them. Would be importat to know what kind of nozzles they used inside those injectors and also important how (if) they set them right.
For now, that`s it about the injectors. Try to verify with the rebuilder and ask what they did and how. Did they know at the time of rebuild that it will go into a specific car a dirsel volvo. Some rebuilders just throw in new nozzles, sometimes cheap bad quality nozzles, and often they dont even test the injectors for spray pattern, opening pressures, etc.
Definitely verify who did the rebuild and how.

A very nice and professional injector job isnt even that easy but once you have a great set properly set, you can do 75000miles on them, some say maybe 100k.

About the lack of power...
Your car was very slow even brand new!! even in Europe LOL but those days that was the style of driving and nobody was bothered by it. They arent race cars for sure but they have very nice torque and it comes at low rpms too which is great. With the right owner, they ran 200-500-700 thousand kilometers easily with minor refurb jobs.
If you think that your car has no real power, which you already explained, try to think it through and try to find why.
It would be great if you had tools the proper factory tools that are somewhat necessary to do the timing , at least. You could use some of what the VW cars used and put together your own kit.

I would start with rechecking the timing bc sounds like you have multiple sign of a misadjusted engine, a tired one, or both. I would put my bets on the first.
What you are explaining is serious lack of power.
My dad had the same car in 1990 and it was a 1984 nonturbo d24 244 car and we still have it, but that car cruised at 135km/hr at any time and all day without no overheat or loss of power. Dont ask me about the 0-60 but it did have proper power and never ever let us down.
It would climb ANY hill, slowly maybe but would pull up a trailer uphill with another d24 car on it.
And it would pull it all day, i have proof bc I know someone who kept transporting cars for years and he used a nonturbo d24 245 to pull them home from Germany on a 2-axle trailer! He often brought the w123 MB cars which were really wanted that time in Hungary.

Anyway. So. Your car need to claim back its power. Recheck and set timing.
Dont worry about compression for now. even with low compression and a worn tired engine, you should have ample amount of power to climb hills and able to feel that car driving stable as it always should.
You really need to know how it got timed and by who and verify again IF they know about these cars at all. Maybe they timed it totally wrong...sounds like it.

My other question.
Do you notice coolant loss? Not just a leak what I mean but dont you have coolant `disappearing` time to time?
If yes, you gotta start with figuring out what`s wrong. Try to look and see if you have (exhaust gas) bubbles in your expansion tank surfacing with the coolant (warm engine or after longer driving with the thermostat already `opened`.
When my dad had a Volga wagon, we would go fishing for years with it with a broken headgasket and the only sign was that it would overheat on hot days and also it never could climb even slopes not just hills.
But it ran well on flat ground and grandpa style driving...and we never got it fixed actually.
Dont stress about your HG going bad now... It isnt the case but no one really knows.

You gotta go through other important details and try to set the car up properly.

Next topic:
You probably need a fuel filter if your tank is usually kept lower than full esp if it didnt run or was parked for a few years.
If you have bad fuel or rust in the tank, those particle will always reappear and screw you at the filter over and over again.
You could actually install a cheap inline filter between where the fuel comes in, before the factory filter; if you suspect that your fuel is /was always contaminated.
Might be the case.

Another ape-man method but it is a good test:
To close out injection pump being `weak` and to close out issues of contaminated fuel that is coming in from the bad fuel in tank etc etc;
you can always find a 15-20liter container and place it in front of the passenger seat inside and `wire up` some fuel hoses from right there and run the car from that contained fuel and see IF you can experience some evolution about how it runs. Many d24 people used that enourmous size washer fluid tank, modded to accept fuel and ran around town like that. Funny at the gas station though. But some pumps were too leaky to suck all the way from the rear main fuel tank and this solved their problem. Until you get the main tank removed and cleaned, it always worked.

Check fuel lines below the body all the way from the tank to the engine. I remember doing offroad fishing hunting and we had some troubles with air intrusion at the underbody a few times. Not much air is needed to make things complicated.
Also keep your engine as clean as possible to be able to spot just about anything. An oily leaky dirty mess is not your best friend for a successful diagnosys!!! IDK how your car looks so I`m just saying, dont take it to your heart. The fuel line between the filter and the inj pump should be transparent/clear, so you could see fuel going thru WITHOUT any bubbles of air. Make sure that the almost invisible clamps are NOT letting air in.
Often they dont at idle but they do when driving longer trips and fuel and tubing gets hot. IDK where you are at so I am trying to mention multiple things to look for as a first plan. To start somewhere...

My other question.
Is your injection pump visibly wet anywhere and does it leak anywhere?
if you have air intrusion just about anywhere between the fuel tank and the motor, it may not run perfectly and it can even run very poorly.
Here it would be nice to know IF it idles fine all the time, If it runs always fine all the time, etc. Power loss is one thing but does it stall does it cough does it do weird stuff as you drive it?

You should be able to wake that car up if the motor is healthy so dont give up.
There`s a lot for you to check but the forum can also help you all the time.
Take videos if you notice anything worth mentioning so we could see it, hear it.

Black smoke usually means too much fuel, white smoke definitely is not good unless it is the very first 20-30seconds at the coldstart.
White smoke to me indicates bad injectors. If the white smoke is smoke, that`s better than having water vapor as white smoke.
Blue smoke would mostly be issues with the piston rings being worn etc.
To me it sounds like someone turned the fuel up to compensate for poor running. There are other ways to adjust the fuel for the motor so you need to sort this out step by step.

About a possible head failure again:
Check your oil for murky milky substance. if water is present inside, you will immediately see at/in the valve cover.
Also check AND smell your coolant at the reservoir and see if you can notice something.

MY BEST ADVICE IS THAT YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS OR HAD THE SAME CAR AND TALK WITH HIM OR MEET UP FOR SOME TINKERING.

Forget the mechanics bc most of them cant and wont deal with such cars. And even more of them dont even know how to.

The ones who had proper training on these specific engines or atleast worked at their oldschool brick car dealerships in the early 80s, are now 60-120y old lol.

Last edited by RedArrow; 06-21-2020 at 09:49 AM.
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  #3  
Old 06-20-2020, 09:02 PM
RedArrow RedArrow is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Vehicle: 1986 Volvo 745 TD
Posts: 900
Default 2

Do you have the d24 engine reconditioning Greenbook book/owners manual? Highly suggested.

About you believing or not THEIR pump repair story:
Well, solving injection pump trouble on a test- bench is definitely harder than setting timing in-car so probably they did both.
What did they do? Did they reseal the entire pump then same people installed it on your car?


About smoke again.
A lot of smoke all times, as you said...IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Weak car, old car, diesel, yes yes yes, but that kind of smoking is not allowed. Your engine is misadjusted or you have bad injectors or they arent perfect. Gotta check timing at the rear belt (fuel timing)


Valve adjustment.
You MUST, again, MUST
check and adjust the valves. Must
And it takes less than an hour even for the beginner vw dieseler.
Please do adjust the valve ASAP. You need to have a chart for yourself to be able to write down values and make a plan on how to swap or switch the shims.
It is super easy you can pm me or whatever I will explain or you read the Greenbook. Valve adj is an absolute must and it is suggested at every 12k but definitely must at every 20-30k because as they wear the gaps get tighter and that is NOT good for you r internals. The intake valve gap must be tigggghhhhht by now. God, when was it even done last time?
It isnt causing your issue btw but please adjust the valves.

There is no damn lifters in the d24 early 200 nonturbo engines so whoever said that to you please turn away and run and never go back to them for any*advice on your d24. Nonturbo d24 needs to have valves adjusted, period!
The later 700 and 900 models do have hydr lifters but that`s your next d24 car not this one Euro TIC motors are REALLY nice and they dont have the stupid waterpump timingbelt tensioner system LOL.

also
to express something equally important as the regular tb service:

it is important to have zero overheat stories whatsoever.
these engine usually died due to overheating because of either misadjusted or neglected or misunderstood.
If you experience the slightest overheating, you gotta stop driving the car. Not for a break but for until you redo the entire cooling system and have it safe again. No overheating is `allowed` in these or you may pay the highest price, the life of your rare survivor car.
If overheat happens, catastrophicv engine damage is almost inevitable so please do your thing and check for leak before and after trips and perhaps at every time you use the car. why not?

No coolant leaks are accepted and if you lose coolant, it takes not much time for the head to warp beyond specs then what?
Big job and too much money too.

Overheating you kept having earlier, could you describe what it was and how when it was happening?
Overheating kills these engines but it is so easy to avoid if the system is kept neatly in order. Hoses, radiator, proper 80 or 87C thermostat, etc.


I should have said in the beginning of this long answer:

you must check your timing and start there.

Add a new fuel filter now too.

About the CS device, no worries.*

and go from there,

stay in touch here and document your troubles so we can see how you and the car are doing.

There must be dieselers around you,

try to meet up and sort things out there too.

Best of luck and dont*give up, soon your car running great again.*

Last edited by RedArrow; 06-21-2020 at 09:50 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2020, 04:47 AM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Belgrade
Vehicle: 245
Posts: 17
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Thank you!
And thank you for the long and quick answers!

The car is actually a 245, and i have also other old cars (including a for spares same 245 diesel and a 244 b21).

I dont visit any mechanics at all doing it myself, but this being a special job i decided to to so. Probably a mistake to make.

I will answer all question one by one now for clarity (sorry i shortened your answers to meet the 10k character bottleneck)

[B]Hi!
It is very nice that you want to save the car that your father was driving. I wish I could do that too... even better, to rebuild it together with him.

about injectors...
What do you mean by saying that the injectors were changed?
Did you install new injectors from another car or did you rebuild your injectors that are in the car now?
Probably you sent your set of injectors to someone to rebuild them. Would be importat to know what kind of nozzles they used inside those injectors and also important how (if) they set them right.
For now, that`s it about the injectors. Try to verify with the rebuilder and ask what they did and how. Did they know at the time of rebuild that it will go into a specific car a dirsel volvo. Some rebuilders just throw in new nozzles, sometimes cheap bad quality nozzles, and often they dont even test the injectors for spray pattern, opening pressures, etc.
Definitely verify who did the rebuild and how.




There were two guys - one an old bosch mechanic (almost 70yrs old) and other who just took the pump in and out.

Here in serbia we have MANY golf mk1 and 2 diesels. So they bought new injector inserts for the mk2 golf and installed them in my injectors. They also say they tested them good.

With the pump removed he resealed the pump and set the pump timing and quantity on the bosch table by the bosch charts (i didnt see that but i believe him tbh) That doesn't mean he didn't mess it up

Then when he and his guy started to return the pump in the car, it was a 3 days long agony They managed to get the car running finally using a dial indicator FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFES. The thing is that there are many golf mk2 diesels here and that they do the timing by the ear on them apparently (heard that from another bosch service i then decided to avoid).



About the lack of power...

If you think that your car has no real power, which you already explained, try to think it through and try to find why.
It would be great if you had tools the proper factory tools that are somewhat necessary to do the timing , at least. You could use some of what the VW cars used and put together your own kit.

I would start with rechecking the timing bc sounds like you have multiple sign of a misadjusted engine, a tired one, or both. I would put my bets on the first.
What you are explaining is serious lack of power.



You really need to know how it got timed and by who and verify again IF they know about these cars at all. Maybe they timed it totally wrong...sounds like it.


I dont mind the slow speed actually, i got used to it, sometimes its even fun. But this is too much when not city driving (this car does spend all its life as a city car)

I will get/make the tools no problem. Would be good if the books included some dimensions for fabrication. Also, a million golf mk2 here, we even used to make them in Yugoslavia, so plenty to go around (that doesn't mean anyone fixes them properly unfortunately, as we can see on my example )

NO one knows ANYTHING about D24 and most people see it for the first time in their life when i pop the hood.

Only the guy who changed the rear small belt a few years ago didn't screw anything up - do you think that he had to time the pump after that or he just put it in the same place?


My other question.
Do you notice coolant loss? Not just a leak what I mean but dont you have coolant `disappearing` time to time?
If yes, you gotta start with figuring out what`s wrong. Try to look and see if you have (exhaust gas) bubbles in your expansion tank surfacing with the coolant (warm engine or after longer driving with the thermostat already `opened`.
When my dad had a Volga wagon, we would go fishing for years with it with a broken headgasket and the only sign was that it would overheat on hot days and also it never could climb even slopes not just hills.
But it ran well on flat ground and grandpa style driving...and we never got it fixed actually.
Dont stress about your HG going bad now... It isnt the case but no one really knows.

You gotta go through other important details and try to set the car up properly.


Volgas are nice i cannot find one here unfortunately that is not overly expensive. And not a single gaz 21.

I check the coolant once a week almost and there is only little consumption/loss. The colour is normal. There is no pulsing (although sometimes it is wet on overpressure valve, probs some trapped air). It smells of burning maybe a bit. It used to loose coolant a bit so dad to tap water for some time and it stopped. I check it so often because i loose enormous amounts of oil (most of it leaking through valve cover tho, will be sorted soon when i find it/make it)

Next topic:
You probably need a fuel filter if your tank is usually kept lower than full esp if it didnt run or was parked for a few years.
If you have bad fuel or rust in the tank, those particle will always reappear and screw you at the filter over and over again.
You could actually install a cheap inline filter between where the fuel comes in, before the factory filter; if you suspect that your fuel is /was always contaminated.
Might be the case.


The tank is sometimes max full, sometimes max low, depends But usually max low. It runs every dany for 24 years, i would worry to park it for more than a few days, it will break

The filter is newish (20k km), i also have a new one waiting.




Check fuel lines below the body all the way from the tank to the engine. I remember doing offroad fishing hunting and we had some troubles with air intrusion at the underbody a few times. Not much air is needed to make things complicated.
Also keep your engine as clean as possible to be able to spot just about anything. An oily leaky dirty mess is not your best friend for a successful diagnosys!!!


Great idea for the washer fluid to fuel tank conversion

I dont have transparent lines, but will get them, i like the idea. Also am thinking of the primer thingy (that rubber thing you squeeze), we add that to cars here regulary.

Its not dirty, but it does leak through the valvecover so its greasy.

Good suggestion, i will change the lines anyways.

My other question.
Is your injection pump visibly wet anywhere and does it leak anywhere?
if you have air intrusion just about anywhere between the fuel tank and the motor, it may not run perfectly and it can even run very poorly.
Here it would be nice to know IF it idles fine all the time, If it runs always fine all the time, etc. Power loss is one thing but does it stall does it cough does it do weird stuff as you drive it?


Its not wet anywhere. It idles nicely all the time (some of my friends joke that it is so quiet whispers, its a low compression joke). But it runs the same all the time, never changes at all. Always the same in all conditions.

It does cough A LOT as i said (after i reduced the fuel on the fuel screw) when cold and trying to accelerate in 2nd gear (first 3-5min).




Take videos if you notice anything worth mentioning so we could see it, hear it.


Will do

Black smoke usually means too much fuel, white smoke definitely is not good unless it is the very first 20-30seconds at the coldstart.
White smoke to me indicates bad injectors. If the white smoke is smoke, that`s better than having water vapor as white smoke.
Blue smoke would mostly be issues with the piston rings being worn etc.
To me it sounds like someone turned the fuel up to compensate for poor running. There are other ways to adjust the fuel for the motor so you need to sort this out step by step.


I know a lot about smoke Yes, the white smoke is injectors since it decreased a lot when i reduced fuel. Yes, they did crank up the fuel, it was overheating and using a lot of fuel - both of which stopped after i reduced fuel "by ear". But mpg is still worse/same than with garden hose injectors.

About a possible head failure again:
Check your oil for murky milky substance. if water is present inside, you will immediately see at/in the valve cover.
Also check AND smell your coolant at the reservoir and see if you can notice something.


No milky oil, no milky valves as far as can be seen from oilcap (the metal guard is removed, i dont know why and why).

MY BEST ADVICE IS THAT YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS OR HAD THE SAME CAR AND TALK WITH HIM OR MEET UP FOR SOME TINKERING.


these are rare here and those that existed were run until they stopped without much care since the mechanics say they are indestructible so people dont even change oil. Prob is that they are all setup wrong by now

The guy whom i met who had it says like i wrote above and says my car is terribly slow. My spare volvo has a much healthier D24 engine but still smokes and is slow (although much less) because someone changed the small timing belt and did an awful job of course. Cannot test it much since i removed the brakes !


I hope we will get to the end of these accumulated problems
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2020, 05:08 AM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Belgrade
Vehicle: 245
Posts: 17
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Do you have the d24 engine reconditioning Greenbook book/owners manual? Highly suggested.

I have the greenbook service manuals in pdf and i can also share if anyone needs it.

About you believing or not THEIR pump repair story:
Well, solving injection pump trouble on a test- bench is definitely harder than setting timing in-car so probably they did both.
What did they do? Did they reseal the entire pump then same people installed it on your car?


I answered this in the post above. Basically, they are able to "routinely" set the pumps up for mk2 golf and such, but when it comes to installing they just slap them in and call it a day. Problem here is that people here think that these engines should have a top speed of 60mph etc anyways.

My quote from above: "There were two guys - one an old bosch mechanic (almost 70yrs old) and other who just took the pump in and out.

Here in serbia we have MANY golf mk1 and 2 diesels. So they bought new injector inserts for the mk2 golf and installed them in my injectors. They also say they tested them good.

With the pump removed he resealed the pump and set the pump timing and quantity on the bosch table by the bosch charts (i didnt see that but i believe him tbh) That doesn't mean he didn't mess it up

Then when he and his guy started to return the pump in the car, it was a 3 days long agony They managed to get the car running finally using a dial indicator FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFES. The thing is that there are many golf mk2 diesels here and that they do the timing by the ear on them apparently (heard that from another bosch service i then decided to avoid)."


About smoke again.
A lot of smoke all times, as you said...IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Weak car, old car, diesel, yes yes yes, but that kind of smoking is not allowed. Your engine is misadjusted or you have bad injectors or they arent perfect. Gotta check timing at the rear belt (fuel timing)




Valve adjustment.
You MUST, again, MUST
check and adjust the valves. Must
And it takes less than an hour even for the beginner vw dieseler.
Please do adjust the valve ASAP. You need to have a chart for yourself to be able to write down values and make a plan on how to swap or switch the shims.
It is super easy you can pm me or whatever I will explain or you read the Greenbook. Valve adj is an absolute must and it is suggested at every 12k but definitely must at every 20-30k because as they wear the gaps get tighter and that is NOT good for you r internals. The intake valve gap must be tigggghhhhht by now. God, when was it even done last time?
It isnt causing your issue btw but please adjust the valves.


THANK YOU! I was saying this for years! But all mechanics sware to GOD that its hydrolifters. I just have to find shims here, that isnt very fun to make

IT WAS NEVER DONE FOR AT LEAST 450k KM


There is no damn lifters in the d24 early 200 nonturbo engines so whoever said that to you please turn away and run and never go back to them for any*advice on your d24. Nonturbo d24 needs to have valves adjusted, period!
The later 700 and 900 models do have hydr lifters but that`s your next d24 car not this one Euro TIC motors are REALLY nice and they dont have the stupid waterpump timingbelt tensioner system LOL.


They are cheap now, soon

also
to express something equally important as the regular tb service:

it is important to have zero overheat stories whatsoever.
these engine usually died due to overheating because of either misadjusted or neglected or misunderstood.
If you experience the slightest overheating, you gotta stop driving the car. Not for a break but for until you redo the entire cooling system and have it safe again. No overheating is `allowed` in these or you may pay the highest price, the life of your rare survivor car.
If overheat happens, catastrophicv engine damage is almost inevitable so please do your thing and check for leak before and after trips and perhaps at every time you use the car. why not?

No coolant leaks are accepted and if you lose coolant, it takes not much time for the head to warp beyond specs then what?
Big job and too much money too.

Overheating you kept having earlier, could you describe what it was and how when it was happening?
Overheating kills these engines but it is so easy to avoid if the system is kept neatly in order. Hoses, radiator, proper 80 or 87C thermostat, etc.


Before i changed the injectors and after reduced the fuel screw it used to get overheat all the time. Now it stopped and is cool like a swimming pool. You want to go uphill? Overheat. You want to go 90kph instead of 80kph? overheat. You want to drive "hard" as in accelerate a bit less slow? Overheat.

I have another gauge cluster for that + i regularly check with IR gun + i have a lot of oil on intake from valve cover (will be changed soon) so it starts to smell so i monitor it carefully.

It never overheated terribly tho! We all kept an eye on it. It got to almost red a few times but that was 10 yrs ago. We are careful about that. But it did spend a lot of time in 2/3 because it really was a terrible problem.

Sometimes it was driven without the thermostat in the summer (i sorted this out later).

The overheating is from something else, not the cooling system (it is not perfect but it is good, new waterpump, second hand but good radiator, no leaky hoses etc.) I answered above also



I should have said in the beginning of this long answer:

you must check your timing and start there.

Add a new fuel filter now too.

About the CS device, no worries.*

and go from there,

stay in touch here and document your troubles so we can see how you and the car are doing.

There must be dieselers around you,

try to meet up and sort things out there too.

Best of luck and dont*give up, soon your car running great again.*


I will keep this thread updated. I hate it when someone solves the problem and then doesn't update the thread

There are dieselers, but mercedes and they are kind of elitists here . all volvo d24 here are completely detuned smoky mess and rare to begin with.

Thank you, there is no giving up. The car is here to stay
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2020, 08:22 AM
RedArrow RedArrow is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Vehicle: 1986 Volvo 745 TD
Posts: 900
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Mrvos,

That`s awesome, sounds like you already have sorted things out by reading a lot about these engines AND that you have the willingness and courage to tackle it no matter what. Sounds like you have the idea about these engines and your car will run just perfect in not time if you get some d24 tools together and open up the Greenbook.

That car is considered being in a lucky situation being yours because others would have scrapped it for poor running (blame the bad fixers) a hundred times already.

SAVE IT!

My answer will be short this time not just bc I have some bricking to do but bc there`s a huge priority for you here.

Your pump timing absolutely must be rechecked and set right.
As suspected at first, sounds like that is your problem.

Based on what you say about the `mechanics` who played around the car and the length of efforts it took them to get it `running`(3days), I bet your engine is set to super- retard or overly advanced to the point of crappy running. 3 days of agony? I`m rolling my eyes and i`m glad (and surprised) that this car even runs with those kind of mechanics.

You really must do the timing and set it to factory specs or a little above but i`d leave that for later... until after it gets set first and checks out and runs fine.

Taking 3 days, is absolutely not normal and it tells us the (lack of) quality of skills they had to set the d24 up.
These motors do take some skill and mechanics who think techniques are the same to dealing with it like it was a gasoline car should stay away from it.

For a good, known old-school diesel mechanic or a weekend enthusiast VW dieseler with good skills and some experience on these motors plus a good coffee, doing the pump installation is not a huge job but it does take some time but definitely not 3days, closer to 3hours.

And you can do it yourself, yes. The Greenbook goes through the entire process and clearly details every single step doing it the right way.

Answer to your question to whether or not the inj pump belt could be replaced without resetting the fuel timing after the job...
Yes, in a very very rare occasion the timing will stay correct or nearly the same but in most cases No the timing will be totally off and car will not run or it may run very badly and sound like crap and run the same. We are talking about tenths of a millimeter making a big difference in how it runs so go figure it out how important it is to check timing and set it right. Precise German engineering here, not a 1961 dumptruck. but the d24 can sound the same )

So whenever the rear belt is replaced or adjusted, yes, the timing must be rechecked (and probably re-set).
There are also easier ways to set timing than what the Greenbook says.
Worst part of the job is that you`ll need some tools fabricated (or found at VW shops or even at volvo places to borrow? idk) and you will be able to do it pretty much in minutes. Some VW diesel timing tools CAN be used and if the vacuum pump is removed you could use the vw tools to set the timing by the book. With the Volvo timing tool, the vacuum pump can stay on which is more convenient. Finding tools for vw diesels will be easy for you there where you are (timing tools, a dial gauge etc).

To install the injection pump itself, yes, you need to have tools (to hold pulley, to reach the pulley nut, etc) and it isnt a nice process when done in-car but yes absolutely you can do it in-car and you should be able to do it yourself.
I`m happy to deal with this on the engine stand though today or tomorrow. makes life easier, especially bc in the 200 cars the space remaining between the firewall and the engine is very limited. Volvo even made their own tool to deal with the hard to reach bolt that secures the ip pulley where the belt runs on.

Good luck and stay in touch as you said. Your car will be night and day once you set that timing to what the car needs. Collect some more info, hit up the Greenbook at the injection timing section and prep yourself for a long afternoon of action.

Take videos :*)
PS. Good that you took time answering the lengthy text because we do know now much more about what you are dealing with. Your dad didnt really work on this car? You said you had it for so long! Nice. But he never took it to a diesel shop to get valves adjusted? I think he did it himself but you were a kid and cant remember. I think he would if he did. LOL. Setting the valves is really nothing if you know what you are doing. And it gets done so quickly. The shims your car +may+ need, are widely available and even gasser audis and vw cars used the same setups over the bucket type valve system. You`ll find them no problem and they arent expensive. Valves need to get adjusted omg never done on this car since you had it for 100s of 1000s of miles? Try to do it ASAP!

Last edited by RedArrow; 06-21-2020 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 06-21-2020, 01:48 PM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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Thank you!

My vacation is in a week, so enough time then to check things out. By then i will source the parts.

I just read the greenbook and it looks like a relatively simple job, only rotating the pump? (relative to camshaft and tdc)

I have to check out if there is a need for an adapter for the dial indicator. Do you know the size of the bolt that covers the hole for the indicator and the general length of the probe? I have many dial indicators but all for machining. Will have to check it out.

Dad worked on the car as much as he could. But the problem is that mechanics here are either incompetent or dishonest (steal parts and break cars on purpose) - funny thing, the breakdowns stopped when the visits to various mechanics stopped. We were told by absolutely everyone that the car is OK and that it should be that way (multiple bosch mechanics). And we changed 10s of mechanics and diesel shops! And it is true that most diesels here rattle and smoke a lot. Also, it is not cheap investment . About the valves - no he was told that there is no need to do it as well, i just asked him he laughed.

Do you think that they could have messed up the pump reseal and setting? How does the process of setting the pump at the bench look like?

What adjustments can i make to the pump without the test bench? And what to do with the fuel srew which i setup "by ear" so no guarantee?

Also, do you know the diameter of the valve shims?

Last edited by mrvos; 06-21-2020 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:06 AM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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The pump is way off, probably 1.x mm instead of 0.x mm and the pump is already pushed inwards to the engine a lot if i recall correctly (not sure if it can even go anymore inwards) - god knows where it is set.

So i intend to try and set it just with rotation and dial indicator but when that fails i intend to set it by loosening the camshaft bolt on the head and doing the method as per greenbook in chapter reinstalling the IP. So im making the tool now to have it just in case. What do you think about my plans?

Btw i have a topic here called D24 na problematic everything if you wish no to clutter this one
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Old 07-04-2020, 12:02 PM
RedArrow RedArrow is offline
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The valve shims are most likely 31mm in diameter. But dont struggle making them bc you would regret as they are widely available. Instead, spend the time and effort to find the tool to lift cam up and the catcher that grabs the shims for ya.

The length of the dial indicator doesnt matter as long as you are able to read values off it properly. The in and out movements of the pump 'plunger' dont exceed 2mm so you'll be fine with a simple vw diesel tool. But the face of the dial ideally reads from 0 to 100 not just until 50 as the vw tools do.

Do the ip retiming in your spare car that has no brakes but runs/ran. Master your skills there... there's nothing that goes wrong as long as you dont butcher things up.
Go by the greenbook or i highly suggest the method in the forum sticky.
When you remove the ip or loosen up the pump, first loosen all hard lines at the injectors and at the pump also, best to remove the thing if you wanna be safest. Why?
These hard lines are fragile and you want to preserve them from bending especially at the ends where they attach. also loosen their three or four clamps on them that are located at various places if still present...hopefully are because they have a function and are needed to keep them safe against vibration.

Then you will be free to do ip removal if necessary and/or testing your tools etc. When the vacuum pump comes off be careful to note the plunger orientation and dont lose the gasket. Do this in cyl 1 at top dead center. You'll have a lot of space to experiment and learn the relatively easy and def straightforward injection pump timing setting procedure. It literally takes minutes when done right. If set right, it runs right.

As the vacuum pump removed, while you remove valve cover also, to positively confirm about the cyl 1 TDC; you can also do valve adjustments if have the tools avail. Or at least check clearances!!! No tools needed for that! You would at least know how off they are or maybe just maybe within specs.
Keep everything immaculately clean. Spray off everything, dirt can not be tolerated in pump or injectors and wont be. Dont forget the hood pad above. Cowl. Head. Valve cover and return lines etc all must be surgically cleaned when you open an inj pump in-car. So dont do it in a sandstorm

Last edited by RedArrow; 07-04-2020 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Pics added
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  #10  
Old 07-04-2020, 04:08 PM
mrvos mrvos is offline
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The valve shims are the same as on Lada Samara (or some other lada not sure), 31mm, easy to get ~1euro a piece, so that is good info.

I am quite scared of dirt getting into the pump just from removing the screw for the dial indicator! Im not sure how sensitive the system is from experience, but it looks to be VERY sensitive.

I made a dial indicator holder but its not as tight as i would like it to be so i will probs be re-making it. The pump blocking tool turned out nicely I will be making the cam block tool as well as the cam method looks to be the best (the one from the sticky)

The valve cover gasket is ordered so when it arrives i can handle that (the current one is non recyclable (also it is original! )

One of the hardlines is leaking btw, i thought it was from something else but no. Tightening doesn't help, so that's the next thing on the list.

Also VERY ANNOYING thing - the notch on the flywheel housing IS BROKEN - for the love of god how? so i have to approximate the position provided it is not bent. Currently thinking of other ways to easily find the TDC since this is not really reliable (i can locate the middle of the broken arrow but im not sure if its bent)

The essence is that the pump should be set 0.65-0.73mm when the engine is at the TDC? i will manage that one way or another.
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