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#1
04-12-2020, 08:25 AM
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Looking at 740 turbodiesel - advice?
Mornin'.
First post here. I am looking at a 1986 740 Turbodiesel with 123k on it. Looks clean, passes Carfax, dealer serviced. Price is high, though. I have been all over the internets, looking for advice. Swedish Bricks says run away from all 80s Volvo diesels, then hide. Other Volvo forums say these engines hate short trips (due to unequal distribution of engine in the top end), start hard, blow head gaskets, warp heads, eat up injector pumps. These sites and others recommend a compression test from a diesel shop that knows these VW diesels, and even a cylinder leak down test. What are your thoughts on all of the above, as people who know this powertrain well? What should I be looking for? What is a clean car like this worth? 
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#2
04-13-2020, 04:38 PM
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The body of the car with the mismatched black door card looks neatly preserved. I would doubt though whether the instrument cluster is original (that could mean the car has more than 123k miles) because these should have the voltage gauge (top left corner) and the boost gauge (top right corner) from factory, especially a GLE edition.
If they serviced this exact car at that dealership then it is Very* nice for you... but I would definitely look into that in the immediate future... especially saying it because of the timing belt/waterpump/idler combo (interference engine). I even wonder whether they still have the proper tools to work on these engines (?????!!) but they may have an employee who really does know about these, who knows? About the infamous rumors on this engine. whoever tells you these were/are crap engines, perhaps never had one of these cars, or never knew how to properly maintain&repair one, or Both of those combined! These engines run relatively perfectly (and one of the smoothest running, smoothest sounding 6cyl diesels of that era) once they have the right owner who takes care of them the right way AND uses proper fluids AND correct (factory*) tools every time they go near the d24t engine. The car. Because it is a sedan and not a wagon, and not manual but automatic, I personally think it is way overpriced. And not to downplay the `leather` color here bc those were beautiful back then when new but it is still a tan interior and clearly showing signs of age. Sidenote: tan auto sedans are wonderful bricks too! And the ZF is a great and comfy tranny. Also reliable. All in all, it is a very very nice and really rare car. PS This car runs poorly,`eats injection pumps`and throws issues at the owners who think -diesels do not need much maintenance and who falsely believe diesels run forever -they fill their cars with unknown quality fuel and don`t keep basic rules of strictly&religiously keeping the fuel system uncontaminated (whenever opening a hard line, the pump, the tank, the injector, and yes the filter too, etc) -those who constantly misadjust the engine and tinker them all the time to achieve unrealistic performance (those without knowing much about *this exact* engine) -those who used wrong parts and/or cheap&low quality parts -who never owned and never read nor followed the specific owners manual on how to keep this exact engine healthy -those who race them cold impatiently -and again, to emphasize it, those who think this car will run forever just because it is a diesel (=WRONG!)  I think it is a very nice engine and it keeps up with modern traffic and so much fun to drive that you dont actually mind you are driving a car under 150hp. And, it is nearly 40 y old Parts and maintenance is relatively cheap/affordable and relatively easy to do. Maintenance IS much much much easier and cheaper than an engine rebuild that resulted due to mistakes listed above. PS #2 In Europe these are still running and most of them often run happily with minor repairs and have clocked 300000-700000 kilometers in them, yes, that is 200-500k miles without engine rebuild. Again, IF IF treated and maintained well. Obviously not on factory TB and injectors.. These cars do need periodic maintenance... so be prepared to do some preventative work on the car, the fuel system, the belts, maybe injectors and some other wear items obviously. Maybe they did do all new steering components and brakes and the entire suspension is fresh like a Sunday cookie but IDK. The block should be `intact`(if) at 123k, I`m hoping it is, that could make this survivor a real gem for another 150-200k without major engine work other than maintenance and fresh belt every 60k and injectors about every 75k or so. There is always something to do. This could be a perfect pandemic project! PS#3 They start hard the most when they are neglected and abused for years then repeatedly misunderstood and misadjusted by those who also let them wear away internally on regular engine oil. Also when wrong parts are used and also when there is air in the fuel system which is btw easy to happen time to time, but an easy job to trace to correct. Injection pump correct timing is a key factor (!!) and takes skill to set properly. (!!) That is where/why most owners gave up on these and sent them to junkyards or parked them in gardens for tens of years to follow. Then the cars often ended up in the right hands again and roared happily and still on the road. That`s for the motivation. Im happy if it ends up in NYS. Fingers crossed! Last edited by RedArrow; 04-13-2020 at 08:32 PM.
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#3
04-13-2020, 07:22 PM
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This is the one?
https://www.smythevolvocars.com/used...b558d399e7.htm Looks like a beauty to me. Nice colors too IMO, and one owner and for sale at the same dealer it was originally bought from 35 years ago and serviced at over the years is the dream scenario for many folks, if they really want a good example of a car. Hard to find that story in real life, but this looks like it. A lot of the long-time dealers actually do amazingly still have the full set of proper diesel tools on their tool wall even today, and many of them also even still have at least one guy around who remembers how to use them. I have seen it in a few different places and it always surprises but impresses me. It's a remnant of Volvo's old ethic that held the longevity of their products as one of their key features, and was committed to supporting them with parts and service long past the point most new car manufacturers would. A lot of the old dealers were invested in that idea too, to their credit, and believed in having the knowledge and equipment in the service dept to handle any Volvo that might roll in, no matter how old or obscure. Not all the dealers were good, to be clear. Mis-handling, ignorance, and mechanical screwups by some percentage of Volvo dealers when working on the diesel cars was a big part of how the diesels originally got some of the negative rumors that surround them. Some Volvo dealers, as well as many independent Volvo shops, were experts at taking a fine-running car in that arrived for scheduled maintenance, then badly bungling a routine timing belt replacement job, and handing the owner back a miserable new version of their vehicle that started hard, smoked, was loud, ran poorly, overheated, and lacked power (sound familiar???), and in lots of cases self-destructed with a slipped timing gear and shattered camshaft not too long after, all due to careless and incomplete work. In many of those situations, when the owner brought the car back to get it put right, the ignorant and confused techs would then replace two, three, four, FIVE injection pumps in a row under warranty, incorrectly believing that the pump was the reason for poor starting and running, and each time not improving the outcome, until the dealer finally tells the owner, "well these garbage diesel engines are just unfixable" -- when they themselves were the source of the problem! I've bought some cars that came with service records that told remarkable stories like this. In reality the VE injection pumps on the D24T engines are tough and reliable and virtually never fail, the same as on all the many other diesel engines where they have been used over the last 40 years. But you can see why a story like what I just described is how many folks would unfortunately get convinced that the pumps were trouble. The same goes for the other problems you read about on the (outdated, inaccurate) SBricks FAQ, which is unfortunately not really an FAQ but rather just a few quotes from confused and frustrated group members speculating out loud and trying to figure things out, mostly 25 or more years ago in the earliest days of internet and email, note the 1991 timestamps! That page now mainly serves to misinform folks rather than help them. Most of the problems described there that you mentioned are issues caused by careless dealers or shops screwing up previously-functional engines and cars with service errors or usage of the wrong type of (cheap, gasoline grade) engine oil, not issues related to the design of the engine itself. That phenomenon was a widespread plague when the cars were new, and is the reason you see some stories of some of these cars dying early and being lemons, and earning the hate of their owners, and yet many others lasting a very long time in reliable use. But once again, on the other side of the coin (and probably more relevant to the car you are looking at), plenty of other dealers did a good and conscientious job, learning the techniques, training the staff, buying the tools, following the instructions, and delivering quality work and reliable good running cars as a result. It's probably safe to say that if this one is still running well after receiving care in this dealer's hands many times over decades, and if they wanted to buy it to sell after knowing it all this time, then the work it has received has probably been competent. RedArrow covered many of the other main points well above. Here's my $0.02: these cars are hard to find in really nice shape now. If you want one of these, why not go for it? The likelihood of another one turning up that's equally good is very low; it's clearly in great condition. Especially right now, I have to imagine the dealer would be flexible on their asking price if you give them an honest offer, since they can't have many other folks currently approaching them for it (and they probably only paid the original owner $250 for the trade-in anyway  ). The key with any older car is to find one that's as original and whole and clean as you can, which this one certainly looks to be. It's much cheaper and easier overall to pay upfront for a great example like this one than it would be to buy a cheaper, more tired one and try to bring it up to the same condition, piece by piece.Welcome to the forum and hope you buy it and stick around!
__________________
86 745 D24T/ZF 345k lifted 2.5" 83 764 D24T/M46 155k
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#4
04-16-2020, 01:00 PM
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Thanks for the replies. Wow, what passion for this engine.
Obviously, both of you who replied found this car pretty easily. Yes, it is the one at the NJ dealer. I was thinking the same thing - the dealer probably paid the original owner nothing on trade and is now trying to make a killing. I also noticed the different gauge cluster, Red Arrow. However, it does have the diesel redline at 5000 rpm, so if it was replaced, it did not come out of a gas-powered Volvo. It had to have come out of a 740 or 760 diesel. Maybe they made a set without the volt and turbo gauge? By the way - I cannot tell from the pics - is the dashboard cracked? I did notice that the trim piece above the glovebox has fallen off - both common in these cars, I have read. Here are my concerns: 1. Price - there is not much of a market for these cars so one would think it is worth far less than $7400. Hagerty does not even have a suggested value on the 700 series as a classic car, the way they do for the 240s. NADA says $1300. 2. Parts - can you still get them? 3. Service - who can service this engine? Certainly not the local Volvo dealer. Where would I find a mechanic? 4. Rest of car - it is 35 years old. I guess this is my least concern because parts or the 700 series in general seem readily available. I would try to fix things myself. Are there a lot of videos on how to fix common things that break on all 700 series cars?
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#5
04-16-2020, 10:56 PM
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Yes, it is a self-selecting group here, fortunately anyone who owns and cares for one of these in the year 2020 is likely to be doing so by choice rather than coincidence.
The cluster looks original as far as I can tell. I don't see anything to suggest it has been replaced. The diesels didn't come from the factory with the boost or volt gauges like the turbo gas cars did. A few may have had additional gauges added as dealer accessories, but most look just like this. I see a couple of cracks in the dashboard top near the middle. Pretty much all of them do this (same as with the 240 series), even ones that live their lives mostly in garages. This one looks pretty minor as far as they go. On some of your questions: Parts: not quite as simple as it used to be, but good for a 35 year old engine and car. The D24 and D24T engines have some lucky things that help in this regard: they are close relatives of the common 4 cylinder and 5 cylinder VW/Audi diesel and gas engines and most parts are shared, and thus inexpensive and widely available. The D24/T engines were also used in commercial and military applications into the 2000s and the parts support for those helps as well. The Volvo car still has good parts availability too, this basic platform was produced with few changes until the late '90s and the cars tend to live long lives so there are many thousands still in normal use. Service: you are right that the chances of finding a neighborhood shop that has the right equipment and knowledge for serious engine work are low. But for regular basic maintenance (fluids, filters, etc) it's nothing out of the ordinary and any good mechanic will be capable. For in-depth work like timing belts, water pumps, fuel injection system work, etc, you will want to bring the car to someone who knows them well. Folks who can help with this exist in your part of the country, fortunately, including Tom Bryant in Maine and others. Some dealers might surprisingly still be willing and capable to get work done too, the odd handful even today seem to still have all the tools for the old models and employ someone who remembers how to use them, though no doubt it would not be cheap. You could ask about this at the dealer that is selling this car, since they claim to have done all the service to it, and here it is still evidently alive after 35 years of care from them.  Price: no way to really know, as you say the market is small enough that "book value" doesn't mean much. These cars are classics now and sometimes you see nice examples sell for surprisingly high prices, $10k or more. On the other end, one in poor condition is worth nothing. In between, it depends on the particular car, who's looking for one, and what they want to pay. Right now I imagine this dealer is hurting and should be happy to listen to any fair offer you propose. I think if they would go for $3-4k you'd get a neat classic car for a good deal, and the dealer would hopefully be smart enough to take it and be happy. But who knows?  They mention full service records. Do you know what those show for timing belt replacements, wiring harness replacement, routine service history etc? You may want to ask for whatever they have and see what you can learn, as those questions play into what the car is currently worth and what it may need soon.
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86 745 D24T/ZF 345k lifted 2.5" 83 764 D24T/M46 155k
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#6
04-17-2020, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t 1985 745 gle d24t
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#7
04-17-2020, 03:08 PM
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Update:
I called three shops here in town (Rochester) and one place that specializes in VWs and other German autos says they could work on this engine. Apparently it is the owner himself. I did not get a chance to ask if he has experience working on it or not, just that he can. I called the only Volvo dealer in town and spoke to the service manager. He said they haven't had anyone there in 20 years that would have worked on an old turbodiesel and that they never really sold that many of them when they were available. The dealer sent me two service records - one being an oil pressure light that stays on continuously and was draining the battery. The other service was replacing the wiring harness under the hood. This goes back to 2018. I asked the service manager for additional records as it is advertised as serviced there since new. He said the Carfax will show other service, but that's all they have. Let's see if they come up with something else.
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#8
04-17-2020, 08:28 PM
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Those wiring harnesses were $600 - $700 +labor then. Shows the owner cared.
The original wiring was problematical. Affects ALL Volvos mid -80s to late -80s. Bosch biodegradable soybean-based wire insulation. Turns to mush and deteriorates when subject to heat, oil, and flexing. Guess what the environment is under the hood? 
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t 1985 745 gle d24t
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#9
04-19-2020, 09:31 AM
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Yes, the replacement of the engine harness is a good sign of owner care and also is a good thing to know is taken care of, because if it had not been, the next owner probably would have needed to plan on doing it.
With the wiring harness known to be updated, the age of the timing belts is the only other really critical service history question, beyond general evidence of good regular care. If you can't get a definite answer on the last time the timing belts were changed, you should probably assume it would need to be done in the near future as preventive maintenance if you end up with the car. If the dealer is able to come up with more records, that will be the #1 thing to look for in them. If you have a good VW specialist nearby that sounded happy to work on this car, then you are probably in luck. This engine is a VW/Audi engine, so even if they have never seen a D24T before, everything on it will look familiar to them and it will pose no challenge if they are experienced with the 4cyl/5cyl versions. All the basic design features and service principles are exactly the same. There are a couple of particular things about the D24/D24T that are a little different from the 4-cylinder engines, mainly the front crankshaft bolt installation that requires some additional special tools and techniques. However, it's not rocket science and is easily dealt with using the recommended equipment. No doubt they would be able to figure it out if they are capable mechanics in general. And if they are lacking one or two particular tools and they don't want to spend the money to buy them just for one customer's car, you could always source those yourself and provide for their use. Several members on this forum have partial or complete sets of the special engine tools that they make available for rent or loan. See our Tool Rental Master List. Same goes for the factory service literature if you or a mechanic should need it: it's available for loan here, or online versions exist in several places.
__________________
86 745 D24T/ZF 345k lifted 2.5" 83 764 D24T/M46 155k
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#10
04-19-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
just changed front brake callipers on my 940 tdi auto 1995 thither are original but no way could i get the brake hose to undo at the copper hard line so garage is doing both flexible hoses tomorrow .! wish me luck hopefully he won't break the copper lines !
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