D24 na problematic everything

[ngoma]

Originally Posted by mrvos

I just read the greenbook and it looks like a relatively simple job, only rotating the pump? (relative to camshaft and tdc)

We prefer another method, explained in this sticky:
https://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1684

Rather rotate the loosened rear camshaft pulley relative to the camshaft and tdc. First rotate the IP outward, not to set timing but to make future rearmost glowplug and/or injector access easier. As Redarrow suggested, loosen slightly the injector hardlines at the IP so they don't get strained when rotating the IP. Retighten them (spec is 25 Nm, 18 ft-lbs, not as tight as most think!) after locking down the IP in its new position.

Then you will set the timing by slightly rotating the (loosened) rear camshaft pulley until your desired reading (.95mm?) shows on the dial, then lock down the pulley bolt while holding the pulley in position, somewhat tricky, may take several attempts.

You will want:

Dial indicator

Dial indicator extension piece

Cam pulley wrench
https://d24t.com/attachment.php?atta...6&d=1405467239
https://d24t.com/attachment.php?atta...7&d=1405467259

Dogleg cam pulley bolt wrench (tight access at firewall in a 240)
http://d24t.com/attachment.php?attac...5&d=1405467219

Injector hardline wrench is nice to have-- some of those nuts are a challenge
http://d24t.com/attachment.php?attac...8&d=1405467279

NOTE: IP pulley lock pin is not needed.

Originally Posted by mrvos

I am quite scared of dirt getting into the pump just from removing the screw for the dial indicator! Im not sure how sensitive the system is from experience, but it looks to be VERY sensitive.

Usually fuel wants to drip out of there, no worries unless you blow some dirt in or introduce dirt on the end of the dial indicator plunger piece.

Originally Posted by mrvos

One of the hardlines is leaking btw, i thought it was from something else but no. Tightening doesn't help, so that's the next thing on the list.

Flared end may have gotten deformed from previous over tightening. See warning above. Happily, you can order new replacement from brickwerx.com.

Originally Posted by mrvos

Also VERY ANNOYING thing - the notch on the flywheel housing IS BROKEN - for the love of god how? so i have to approximate the position provided it is not bent. Currently thinking of other ways to easily find the TDC since this is not really reliable (i can locate the middle of the broken arrow but im not sure if its bent)

That arrow is more like a wide triangle, not likely like it could bend along the direction of flywheel rotation. Is it bent in toward the flywheel?

Originally Posted by mrvos

The essence is that the pump should be set 0.65-0.73mm when the engine is at the TDC? i will manage that one way or another.

We seem to like .95mm, why don't you start there and see how that works?

[ngoma]

Originally Posted by mrvos

My quote from above: "There were two guys - one an old bosch mechanic (almost 70yrs old) and other who just took the pump in and out.

Usually those old Bosch mechanics are like gold. Many years experience where it counts. We lose a lot when each one retires.

Originally Posted by mrvos

Here in serbia we have MANY golf mk1 and 2 diesels. So they bought new injector inserts for the mk2 golf and installed them in my injectors. They also say they tested them good.

Because there are many still on the road there should be a reasonable repair/parts network, a good situation.

Originally Posted by mrvos

With the pump removed he resealed the pump and set the pump timing and quantity on the bosch table by the bosch charts (i didnt see that but i believe him tbh) That doesn't mean he didn't mess it up

Realize there is pump internal timing (should say RPM or fuel pressure dynamic timing advance) and pump static timing (stays static, relative to crankshaft position). On the bench it is possible to set only the internal dynamic timing. Static timing has to be done on the engine, and can really cause driveability problems.

Originally Posted by mrvos

Then when he and his guy started to return the pump in the car, it was a 3 days long agony They managed to get the car running finally using a dial indicator FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFES. The thing is that there are many golf mk2 diesels here and that they do the timing by the ear on them apparently (heard that from another bosch service i then decided to avoid).

Timing by ear: A 70 y.o. experienced Bosch tech could probably do that. Not saying your guy can do that, but someone working on these day in day out for years could do it.

[mrvos]

Thank you, this is great info!

The greenbook manual recommends 0,65-0,73mm, that's all.

The method is interesting and i will give it a go, similar to greenbook but easier

The arrow is mangled and ripped off, i regret not taking a pic, will update the post when i do. Is there another good way to find the tdc on these?

[RedArrow]

If you have the green book manual or an online copy; they state what's best for the vehicle as per factory recommendation.
If I were you I would set the timing to between 0.83-0.85.

Bellhousing is prob broken or chipped due to somebody trying to go around using the proper tools&method.
As the greenbook says it too, cyl 1 TDC is easily found when the cam lobes are both pointing up and you can see the mark in the rear. Some cars have an X and a 0 and in that case you use the zero mark.

I just timed a zf auto car's td engine and it doesnt have the x, only the zero. Some or all d24 nonturbos have both so pay attention.



Here's a picture how the thing looks when the mark is "copied" into the engine casting from the bellhousing marker.

On this engine it is 38mm away from* the exact center point* of the bellhousing bolt hole below it. (From Center-point OF THE HOLE to: where the mark starts on the edge of the engine body.)
The first thing I do after buying a d24 engine is transfering the bellhousing mark into the engine casting by using a hand file! Only then the engine gets on the stand and thats btw when the bh needs to come off anyways.

I can go and measure the same mark on my other, d24 nonturbo motors, for you to compare.

Oh I didnt see that you received other replies too. Good!



I've read them quite a lot but never seen any of my d24 or d24t greenbooks suggest 0.65-0.73! Follow factory specifications carefully, that's what they are for. Time it to around 0.85mm at first and see how it runs for you.

Update: the yellow color nonturbo d24 engine is measured slightly differently bc I didnt want to fully open up the cover that I had put on it.
It measured from center of the "bump" in the casting till the mark that I filed in when the d24 bellhousing was still attached. Consequently the d24 and d24t has the same. Hope this helps you to mark yours.

Note that the rotating 0-mark will fall level with yours *twice, while at the same time the front crank pulley only rotates one revolution (360°). Not both 'meet-ups' indicate the TDC on cyl #1. Both cam lobes of cyl 1 need to point equally 'up'

Green=d24t
Yellow=d24

[mrvos]

Which greenbook do you have? Maybe i can find it too, mine looks to be original and is quite detailed. These values are repeated multiple times. But if your values are experimental, especially on a worn-in engine, that's better.

These markers from your photos are great info!

Do you have an idea how to use them with the engine in the car? Maybe the positioning sleeve you are referencing from is mounted on a through hole that is visible with the bellhousing on?

The 0 and the arrow meet twice, but only once on TDC, and i will know its TDC from the camshaft position, right?

Side question, maybe i can find TDC through glowplug hole?

[RedArrow]

You are right, the d24 greenbook does mention those values. It is a little misleading there because they also mention other values just a few pages apart. I have the same greenbook that you have and other versions/years as well, also the d24t editions for several years.
Even if you can see 0.65-0.73, you can (and should) totally ignore this part of the manual!... and time your engine to 0.80-0.90 as others here also suggested.

About how to find TDC on cyl 1.
It is super easy. You still haven`t uploaded a picture so we don`t know how `broken` your bellhousing may be. Maybe you only think it is but there`s nothing wrong with it. Take a picture, I want to see what you are dealing with.

BTW, there`s a hole or little window in the bellhousing and via that hole you should be able to spot markings as you turn the crankshaft. If the surfaces are rusted, use a little soft sandpaper rolled up on a wooden pencil and ask someone to push it against the rotating surface to get it cleaned up while you are turning the crankshaft 27mm bolt, by hand.
step 1
Find the marks made by factory.
step 2
identify Top Dead Center for cylinder #1
step 3
reopen greenbook and follow the steps of their procedure OR READ THE FORUM STICKY as Ngoma suggested and detailed.

You`ll need:
dial that screws into the pump at the front middle after you removed the small bolt and its washer. Keep that washer dont lose it and never overtighten that bolt when you finish.
Once you have the dial gauge set up after loosening or removing the fuel hard lines also (to save them from bending), then all you have to do is turning the engine and experimenting on what you see on the gauge and follow the greenbook.

If I keep writing the same stuff over and over again, members of this forum will get annoyed and sign off lmao so please do read that manual very carefully now. Setting the timing literally takes minutes and must be done correctly for these engines to run well AND to run at all.

There`s nothing you can screw up, if you cant seem to set it right, you`ll set it again and learn how to do it. And you have a whole entire spare d24 car to do all of this, which is a very lucky situation for you.
Take your time and read everything we sent you and read again the greenbook manual. Once your tools are purchased or fabricated, this is a very easy task and you`ll always be able to do it at any time even on the side of the road with a flashlight and large mosquitos biting your face.

Take pictures of the tools you are going to use, we need to see that, and the bellhousing that you think is damaged.


About the TDC confirmed thru the glowplug hole, my answer is NO.
You get the valve cover off and put your eyes where cylinder 1 is at the very front of the car/engine. The first two cam lobes, exhaust and intake, will be pointing equally `up` if you turn the crank to TDC cyl 1.

If you need to see pictures on how this is done, go to valve adjustment section of the book.
They have good illustrations of how the two lobes are positioned when the engine is in TDC for that cylinder.

With this engine, there`s no shortcuts and you want to make sure that you set it right every time you open this engine up. German engineering with precise specifications and tight tolerances. That is exactly why they created their own tools for those who needed to work on these engines. A 170 year old Bosch mechanic setting timing for 3 days is not acceptable and shouldn`t be the case on a car that is now getting too rare to have to deal with that (they tried without the needed tools). Almost extinct and 40years old, your d24 should remain a survivor and run relatively well for some more years to come. It`s very nice that you have those people around though because they can help you find specific parts and know their way around sources, plus they have huge stories to crack you up.

Proper tools are a must. The best is, if you plan on keeping the car for a long time, to hunt down factory tools at dealerships, ebay, abroad, etc. They do have a reason to exist and no mechanic can safely go around using them, highly suggested to do things right for the health of your car.
You`ll be able to set just about everything right if you treat the greenbook as your d24 bible.
That way you don`t need anyone to tinker around and mess things up.

Just please read the book over and over again and try to pay close attention to how and why things are done. It is just a 40yo old diesel engine without computers. Mostly everything is mechanical, you`ll be fine fixing your own engine with basic tools but you will always need to know what you are doing.

Within a few days I bet your car will be running better than ever and timing set by you. You`ll drive to the elderly buddies and show them how you set a Bosch pump up in 2020. ) not by ear, at all, and, even with using earplugs.
Dont give up and read about the stuff. Have you found vw timing tools at least and the dial gauge kit?

[mrvos]

Thanks!

The bellhousing arrow is not as bad as i thought - photos are better than my eyes, and also the phone can get closer. I will try to view it perpendicular to the arrow, so that the arrow is in the middle of the hole (easier said than done due to heater core hoses).

Still having problems with mounting the dial indicator, but that will end tomorrow i hope - by either finishing my mount properly or by literally installing it on a magnetic base for a lathe! jk i could buy it, finally found it but its quite expensive and low quality.

Tried timing it today "by ear" as i was trying things out (also kinda impatient ) and it is so much better now! Cant wait to finally set it at 0.80mm and meet the true d24

[RedArrow]

Good news and you have some progress.

That bellhousing doesn`t look that bad at all! I thought you`ll have a palm-sized chunk of it completely chipped off and missing.
It`s good because as you would expect, the `arrow`is located in the very center of the bell shaped window.

So you can just imagine that it`s still there then find the very center and mark it. You can time the engine using that very center point in the future (your own mark), and dont forget that your confirmation is the cyl1 tdc at the front cam lobes, pointing up.

If you finally take videos, just upload them on youtube (quick process) and add a link in your post.

Glad it runs better already.

Did you manage to spot the factory `0` mark?
Also, there`s a bolt visible in your picture, isn`t it the one that holds the rear belt cover?

About the dial tool.
Are you familiar with how it looks? I can take a picture.

The tool turns INTO the IP, the `hollow` Volvo tool has threads at the pump end/pump side; and that`s how it gets `locked` in the pump. The long part that connects the internals of the IP with your dial gauge, is `running` through the hollow part (the gauge end of it is screwed into the dial gauge, the gauge with the long inside part then gets inserted through , `locked` again , but this time it locks at the `front side` (locks/secures to the hollow part).

See picture below. This beautifully preserved, original, never used Volvo tool from 1986 is a good illustration for you.
The dial gauge reads until 100 / 1 , which is very convenient for us, right? You wanna set your d24 to 0.85mm -- and not 0.73 .



Note that the hollow part of the tool has an open end where it has threads and a `nut` can go on it and tighten the internal part of the tool into the hollow part, once you inserted it.
But first take a look at the threaded part of the inside part. That, will thread into the dial gauge, if you undo the little `cover` that sits inside it. And that`s how it should be. (You don`t need that tiny part for this application.)

You can also see that this gauge has a rotating face and a twist-lock, also you can set preload if you wish and monitor it in the inside dial face... Some do 2mm preload on it but I don`t.

Anyways.
So first the inside part threads into the gauge where you removed that tiny piece. Then the hollow part goes into the pump by its threads. It secures into pump. You turn in in until it stops and feels totally secured. Dont need to overtighten though.
Then you insert the inside part with the gauge and as you add the locking nut you can already tighten it to secure the whole thing. As you insert this into pump thru the hollow part, feel gently the preload when the inside touches the inside of the pump.

That`s when you set preload if desired and lock the other side of your tool. Don`t knock the pump, don`t knock the dial gauge. Treat it gently.

bla bla now you are set to go

two rotations clockwise on the crank, and then greenbook steps or sticky info.
...
...

Just watch the lowest number....set the gauge to 0 when the lowest number shows up.

You need to know where the cyl1 tdc is so start with that. Valve cover coming off.


I just wanted you to see the tool, the rest is in the book and in sticky. You can do all of this with a `shorter` vw tool. Volvo simply made it this long in order for the mechanic to not have to remove the vacum pump for timing an engine (this runs all the way thru without the v.pump being in the way for timing.
Best of luck, take picts.

[ngoma]

Found a good method that may work for you:

"Here's a method I have used for finding exact TDC that does not require any fancy equipment. Remove the glowplug (and not the injector) from either #1 or #4 (#4 works easily for this). Rotate the crank until it is rising on the compression stroke for the cylinder. Then use a length of clear tubing pushed into the glow plug hole. Make a good seal around it. If necessary, use grease or sealant. Then place the other length of the hose in a container (preferably clear) of water. Rotate the crankshaft slowly and you will see bubbles coming out of the tubing. At exact TDC, the bubbles will stop moving out of the tube and water will start being pulled in."

From http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,46544.0.html, post #8.

NOTE: Cylinder #1 will work best for us. Poster libbydiesel suggests to use #4 because on the VW 4-cyl, the IP hinders access for #1.

Then you can epoxy a suitable replacement indicator to the bellhousing for the missing triangle indicator on yours.

[mrvos]

It's done, the engine is set at 0.85mm exactly. The car is much better now, ill explain soon.

Now i will explain what i did, the changes and the current situation of quite a bit of remaining issues

You have helped me a lot! Now i've gained confidence with working with diesel systems Thank you for the detailed guidance.

Part1: What i did. If you are a random future forum reader, dont do this, go to the sticky about IP timing!

When i set the engine "by ear" it was at 0.75mm, and the car seemed a bit better than now (will explain below, but a bit less smoke at high speeds and seemed a bit faster, probably has to do with something else)

What i learned from trial and error is that there is another way to set the timing (not going to say its the best but it was to my liking), using no special tools. I tried the forum method and it is certainly good, and the best with the right tools.

I didn't like the dial indicator because it was either sticking a bit or moving a bit, not exact to the point of 0.05mm actually. And i hated breaking the camshaft bolt loose.

So i tried "my" method. You dont need tools, but you do need a helper

I jammed a phone deep inside the engine bay so i can see the bellhousing through the camera, excellent view from these new fancy smartphones. Still worried if i missed a tooth here due to angles (i tried very hard not to and i dont think i did)

Took the valve cover off. Nasty silicone there

I loosened the pump so i can rotate it.

I used VERNIER CALIPERS instead of the dial indicator. But carefully! First of all, since the pump is open you must care about dirt and debree. The depth probe goes into the pump plug hole, and the caliper rests on the flat surface for the plug bolt. The pump has a small hole in the middle - deep inside, so the depth probe of the calipers can be tightly inserted into the hole (use quality calipers with ground metal probe with a small notch at the end, not that wire useless type). Then the helper turns the engine as i check the reading (constant pressure on the calipers), very easy to read and find everything. He has to stop from time to time so i can read the exact meas.

Rotated the pump as needed.

Check again. Spin the engine a few turns and recheck etc. All is well.

Assemble and end.

Double checked with the dial indicator, its good but all i know from it is that its between 0.8mm and 0.9mm. (i used quality indicators btw).

I will loosen the hardlines so they can relieve if there is any tension.

btw i cranked the engine without the pump screw (glowplugs off) to spit out if there was any dirt. Not sure if it was smart but i did it every time and seems ok.


Part 2: changes and issues

The car runs much better now. Much less smoke. Much less stutter on acceleration when cold (although it was smoother at 0.75mm).

Issues:

Smoke. Much less - almost 0 smoke at idle, little smoke when revving stationary car (gray), quite a bit of smoke when going 80+ kph and hard accelerating (gray-white smoke).

Top speed is now maybe 120kph (was a bit easier to reach maybe when at 0.75mm) NOT AT ALL EASY TO REACH

Acceleration. Car accelerates quickly to 50kph, than a flat spot that takes really long until 80kph and then after considerable time i can reach 100kph and after even more time 110kph and eventually almost 120kph. My speedo is precise btw. And when doing that, 90+kph, a lot of smoke (white-gray)). And smokes (gray-white) at acceleration. When under pressure and in higher rpm it smokes like that.

Not really gaining rpm as smooth as i thought it would when accelerating. Probably subjective. Not visible on video.

Still a bit of stutter when cold accelerating in 2nd gear with lower revs. Also was less at 0.75mm a bit.

Starting. No CS device. We know it has very low compression, but even in these warm summer days i have to pull the lever of the CS to start. And use glow plugs for around 10s. I have the fast starter. Starts excellent without glow plugs when warm.

Still wont pull uphill and looses momentum as if i was towing a very heavy trailer. Almost no changes here. (3rd gear impossible on moderate hills - unless i accumulate a lot of speed before)


Maybe all this is due to low compression?


Remaining jobs:

Valve timing. Soon the parts arrive.

Fuel screw (it was set by ear by me, so god knows, the mileage is okay, not spectacular tbh but good (around (+-0.5l) 6l/100km when going 80kph))

Service - hoses, hardlines (atleast one), filter...

Install a copper washer on pump plug as ofc it wasn't there

Im thinking of making a manual cold start device operated from the inside, will post it here if it turns out okay. Do you have any ideas or suggestions?

Loosen the pump belt as the mechanics made it tightt

What kind of video should i film?