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Old 10-19-2009, 07:36 AM
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Jason Jason is offline
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Default DIY water alcohol injection setup!

I did a water/alcohol injection setup over the weekend with great results. Since I still dont have the manifold I want and a regular intercooler, some chemical intercooling was in order. I'm planning to take it to the track this week and its the last test and tune before the season is over. I had to do something!

The nice thing about this setup is that its boost sensative, as in the more boost you make the more it will flow. As boost drops off the flow does too, so your not stuck with a on/off only window that can be too much at a certain rpm or boost level and then not enough at another.

Parts needed:
bottle of some kind
small inection orfice (I used carb accel pump discharge nozzle)
Ebay cheapo boost controller
a few feet of windshield washer system hose or vac hose
fishtank one way valve
vac line "T" to tap into manifold pressure hose to injection pump
zip ties

I used a carb accel pump dump jet out of a Solex one barrel carb of a VW bug. I drilled the orfice to "60" (.6mm) and that has worked out to be a good size. I could probably size it up another .05, but I dont want to go too big and then have to get another one tio replace it. For me, the 60 made a noticable difference and there is no clatter when its running with it on. A nice side benefit besides the intercooling is that it will help clean your combustion chamber as the water turns to steam. Also, it really helps clean up the smoke! I went from a haze of smoke at 15lbs boost to absolutely nothing under full boost at WOT with the injection setup. Here are some pictures:




I positioned the orfice just ahead of the compressor wheel so the turbo can help atomize the water. Also, you may notice inline there is a one way valve for a fish tank. That keeps it from bleeding water into the intake when the water level is above the orfice. It is installed in the direction of flow, but provides just enough resistance with the little rubber flapper inside to keep it from bleeding. I've also incorperated a inline bost controller to regulate the boost level that the system starts to flow. Without it, you would drain your tank in no time as these cars run a couple to 5 lbs of boost on the highway. I have the system tuned to start to flow at around 8lbs off boost, so regular highway cruising there is no flow, but as soon as you lay into the throttle it begins to work. As the boost increases, so the does the pressure in the bottle and therefore the flow does as well.

Here is a diagram:

I used an old windshield washer bootle. You can use anything as long as it can be pressurized.

Jason
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SOLD but not forgotten! 1984 760 Sedan, built D24Tic/ T-5 swapped
9.90@71mph in the 1/8th, 2.2 sec 60' (burning tires off through 1st gear)
My engine build: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t...t=engine+build
T-5 swap: http://d24t.com/showthread.php?399-W...to-quot-w-pics!
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:43 AM
lalozf lalozf is offline
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great idea, I like it a lot.
one day I will try it.
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Volvo 760 GLE TD 1984
Volvo S60 D5 2005
Miata Mk2,5 SC M45 2002
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:56 AM
IceV_760 IceV_760 is offline
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Did you notice what kind of power increase?
That idea really interests me.
I have soon my IC assembled (only minor work left)
and been thinking too about water/alcohol injection to my car,
since at this moment i dont have money required to buy bigger turbo and
"liquid head" to pump. Tho with IC there comes problem,
since it will chill water steam back to liquid form of water,
and thereafter just fall in bottom of IC.

Nice job anyways, absolutely!
I will re-desing your idea a bit, to work on IC, and also some minor modifications.
But, keep going, smoke your neighborhoughs!
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:01 AM
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Jason Jason is offline
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I noticed a decent increase. Also, using windshield washer fluid has water and alcohol, so the alcohol is being burned as is just like adding more fuel. I don't know if you would really need it if you already have an intercooler, I'm still all hot air! If you were pushing lots of boost, I think it would help out as the intercooler can only do so much, but at 10 to 15lbs of boost I cant say for sure if it would help on top of the intercooler thats already there. The orfice I have is pretty small and it sprays the water in directly at the turbine wheel. That chops it up even more, I don't think it would collect at the bottom of your intercooler but who knows. It should be in water vapor form untill it gets into the engine, it turns to steam during combustion.

Jason
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SOLD but not forgotten! 1984 760 Sedan, built D24Tic/ T-5 swapped
9.90@71mph in the 1/8th, 2.2 sec 60' (burning tires off through 1st gear)
My engine build: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t...t=engine+build
T-5 swap: http://d24t.com/showthread.php?399-W...to-quot-w-pics!
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:07 AM
IceV_760 IceV_760 is offline
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I think i will add nozzle straight to intake manifold, a bit towards
"sucking ditches".
So opening valves (see jbg i learned new words) which cause continuos
suction in hand with about 1bar turbo pressure,
should keep injected water on move, so it wont form liquid on bottom of the intake manifold.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:44 AM
IceV_760 IceV_760 is offline
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Damn.. Some problems if i think to locate nozzle straight to intake manifold.
Pressure there is too 1bar, same pressure which tryes to push liquid from water container to manifold.. So that wont work, atleast wont work so at it would be any help. Need to think different way.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:00 AM
IceV_760 IceV_760 is offline
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Ive been thinking this thing since i saw that topic today.
Ive made my own mind, and in my opinion,
that system pretty much loses its effective with IC,
and its harder to pull liquid throught nozzle to intake system like Jason did,
since it condense in bottom of IC due to high lowering on temperature in intake air.
Even it wouldnt fall on bottom of IC, i believe it would form beads in tight ditches of IC.
But if we would, with same Jason's system place nozzle straight to intake manifold, the fact at theres same pressure on intake manifold than the one which tryes
to push the water/alcohol mixture throught nozzle, that in my opinion dont work at all, or just forms water beads in head of nozzle.
And with normal fuel pump you cant push so much fuel to engine at it overheats due to that and brokes, so its very little power reserve to get.

But, as everyone knows from his/her own experiece, d24 powered engine is really slow and dead until turbo starts to spool. Now to my idea.
Its not totally ready yet, and might be so at some of you will
solve few problems i have ahead before me
Yes, we want to feed that water+alcohol mixture before turbo starts to spool to compensate it. Remember this on that point: when we have overfeed on engine, turbo will start to spool on earlier rpm's due to excessive exhaust gas.
When we inject that mixture to engine, it will allow more percent of fuel to be burned, like turbo pressure does, therefore adding more power.

But, we cant use that "under pressure" richer, so we have to raise the overall fuel feed.

Back to thing. Thats moded from Jasons original system.
We make pressurised tank, pretty much like Jason's old windsheild washer bottle, but that one needs to last continuos pressure, im thinking of something between 2-5bars. To form the pressure on tank, we will add one-way ventil to hose which comes from turbo to tank, so the pressure in tank wont be depent of turbo pressure. And pop-off ventil to tank aswell, to open when it reaches prescribed pressure, like 2bar, so the tank dont blow up.
Now, pretty much like Jason does, we will lead hose from tank, but this time, to intake manifold, where we have drilled hole, and assebled adapter to nozzle. But, somewhere to that hose between tank and nozzle, we will add magnetic ventil, which will be closed when electricity circuit is open, and opens when electricity circuit closes. Sensor will be placed in back of the gas pedal, on certain point, just need to build rack to it. So when we pull full throttle, or where you put your sensor, electiricty circuit closes, opens magnetic ventil and allows water/alcohol mixture to travel to nozzle and spray out from there.

Problems i have at this moment

How we will open the electricity circuit when turbo starts to spool and make pressure? Most likely we would want solution which would allow us to adjust at in what pressure electricity circuit opens. Ive been thinking at we could use one kind of system, where is a spring and some kind of plate on cylinder, where comes the same pressure what turbo makes. So when theres more pressure, the plate, where pressure comes, would push the spring "down".
And somehow that way cut electricity circuit. Maybe by pulling electricity circuit to magnetic ventil through cylinder, but when plate is pushed down, it would lead electricity circuit to "land" and that way cutting it before magnetic ventil. OF course we could at manual switch where to open circuit, at
magnetic ventil shuts down, but it would be manual, and noone of us dont want to play with some switch at all, so lets make it automated.

Im now really thinknig about this system over night, most thanks to Jason for original idea. Feel free to comment and please, give additional Ideas how to carry out so at electricity circuit opens when pressures come, to shut down the magnetic ventil and closing water/alcohol mixture flow to nozzle.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:07 PM
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Jason Jason is offline
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WOW that was alot to take in. What your describing would really be more fitting for a Nitrous system, like a small 25 shot to help the turbo spool. The water is to help cool the intake charge, as well as add some small amount of extra fuel via the alcohol. However off boost I don't think there would be any advantage to injecting any water into the engine.

Thats not so say it wont work, but sounds like alot to do!!!


Jason
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SOLD but not forgotten! 1984 760 Sedan, built D24Tic/ T-5 swapped
9.90@71mph in the 1/8th, 2.2 sec 60' (burning tires off through 1st gear)
My engine build: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t...t=engine+build
T-5 swap: http://d24t.com/showthread.php?399-W...to-quot-w-pics!
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  #9  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:29 AM
IceV_760 IceV_760 is offline
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Well, as you know, water is H20.
So when it "burns" it will give up oxygen.
There we face the fact at it works just like turbo: by adding more
pressure, we will get more oxygen at same capacity, therefore allowing
more fuel to be burned. Vaporizing water does the same,
we get more oxygen to same capacity, but without turbo.
And continuos suction in intake manifold will keep that water/alcohol mix
to continuosly flow to cylinders, so we might need bigger nozzle than you used,
to keep enough mixture going to all six cylinders.
Maybe we could even use multiple nozzles, drilled in side of intake manifold.
That was good addition too Jason, at it will cool intake manifold,
and cooler intake manifold we have, the lower is temperature in air,
and therefore again, we get more oxygen per cylinder to same capacity.
With metanol theres one problem: it will explode way before diesel will,
causing knocking to pistons, since pistons are still coming up.
So we cant use too strong mixture.

Of course we could also insert on/off switch to electricity circuit to
give us change to spread mixture via nozzles everytime we want,
so we make it half automatized.

I thinked about the automatic switch on night, but well, no
usable idea yet, need to keep thinking.
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  #10  
Old 10-20-2009, 11:27 AM
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Jason Jason is offline
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I'm using windshield washer fluid so the alcohol content isn't very high... To do direct port like you are talking, you would need a pump to run it. At that point it would probably be better to buy a kit like coolingmist or develsown as they come with a high pressure pump and they also sell nice digital proportional controllers to ramp up the injection quantity however you tune it.

Jason
__________________

SOLD but not forgotten! 1984 760 Sedan, built D24Tic/ T-5 swapped
9.90@71mph in the 1/8th, 2.2 sec 60' (burning tires off through 1st gear)
My engine build: http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t...t=engine+build
T-5 swap: http://d24t.com/showthread.php?399-W...to-quot-w-pics!
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