D24T.com  

Go Back   D24T.com > Forum Info > New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-12-2013, 07:08 PM
morgan1227 morgan1227 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 31
Default Hi from Arizona - trying to bring one back

Hi this is Bill from Arizona. My daughter just got her permit and when a co-worker said that he had an old volvo for sale, I was curious. Well, under 5 pounds of dust was an 85 740 2.4L TD:
- rebuilt motor, new timing belt
- new injection pump
- rebuilt turbo
- brakes good
- transmission fluid clear
- many new parts
- several factory manuals
- 90k on odometer, not registered since '98
- no rust, clean body
- alternator, battery, most EGR parts, and a few misc. parts missing
- engine wiring SHOT

The engine and pump were rebuilt in 2007, so the car has been sitting in either New Mexico or Arizona (both dry dry dry climates) since then.

I knew zilch about diesels prior, but I really like this car. After cleaning up the wiring and locating (most) missing parts, I was ready to fire it up last weekend. To that end, I had:
- pulled the tank and drained 5 gal of nasty orange brown diesel
- scrubbed and scrubbed the inside of the tank (very little rust)
- pumped gasoline then seafoam through the fuel lines prior to the filter
- changed filter and filled it with new diesel
- primed the pump (with regular diesel)
- tried to push fluid through the system (with air)
- checked the fuel valve solenoid (it clicks)
- checked the glow plugs and relay (they seem to work)

It is about 70 deg here and the plug light stays on 4-5 sec. One thing that bothers me is that I get 10V at the glow plug rail to neg. post when plugs are on. Does it really pull it down that much?

I crank and crank and it turns over but no sputtering or smoking. The guy who sold me the car said that I just need to keep bleeding the fuel lines, starting 1st at the pump manifold, then at the injectors. Any other suggestions? He also didn't think the pump had any internal rubber seals, so priming with Bio wasn't that important.

thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:30 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,351
Default

Congradulations! And Welcome to the D24T forum.

The 6 GPs do pull a lot of amps, but verify all the GP feed wires and connections are in good shape. IIRC, I measured around 9VDC on the GP bussbar. Also, these engines do not start well if one or more (esp.) GPs are bad.

Starter must be spinning engine fast for it to light off, especially after an extended dormant period. ~600 RPM? Take care of the starter not to overheat it. 10 sec. crank, 30 sec. rest.

If the injector lines are dry, that requires considerable cranking to get fuel into the injectors. Helpful tip: Hold accelerator at WOT to get more fuel to flow BUT::: Arrange your air intake so someone can quickly cover the intake plenum with a board or other suitable object (NOT a hand, NOT a rag) incase it starts to runaway, a distinct possibility.

Handle the injector hard lines with care, try to let them find their natural position when retightening them, and don't reef on the nuts too hard.

I had one that had sat awhile and just would not start. Lines were bled, spitting diesel, etc. We had to resort to pulling the injectors and squirting 1/4 tsp. in each hole to get the rings to seal. After that, no problems.

OTOH, we just revived another one that sat a couple years with BD in the rainy PNW (hood partially open) and, after checking belts, hoses, filling the cooling system, it started up so fast it startled us!

To start with:

1. Good battery charger on good battery.
2. Loosen the #1 injector line at the injector, crank with key on (to energize the fuel cutoff solenoid), and check for fuel spurting at the opened union.

If not, work backward from there.

Gasoline in the fuel lines could be problematical.

Too much (air) pressure into the IP also not good; you don't want to blow out the seals.

You can force the GPs to glow longer by disconnecting the terminal at the thermostatic sensor at the rear of the head, just under the rear cam pulley. This will fool the GP controller into thinking it is max. cold and to energize the GPs for the max. time.
__________________
1985 744 gle d24t
1985 745 gle d24t
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2013, 12:36 AM
745 TurboGreasel 745 TurboGreasel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Freedom CA
Vehicle: 85 745, 84Suburban 96Ram
Posts: 509
Default

Sounds like a score!

The vane pump on the low pressure side of the injection pump is prone to hang after a long sit.

I find a small electric pump upstream of the fuel filter, and jumping from a big diesel help get things moving.

A little gas in the line won't be a problem, you can start on 80%+ gasoline, and it doesn't run bad till about the temp where glows won't come on, or about 7 minutes at idle.

You can't push fluid through the system with air unless you undo the return line somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:24 AM
v8volvo v8volvo is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Montana, USA
Vehicle: '86 745, '83 764
Posts: 1,618
Default

The GP's pulling voltage down that much is probably a positive sign if anything -- suggests that at least a good majority of them are working, assuming no issues elsewhere in the circuit. If you're concerned, you can check voltage drop at the GP bus vs. at the battery positive terminal when the plugs are energized; under normal circumstances, with 6 healthy plugs, total system voltage will drop when the GP's are energized (enough so that you should be able to hear the pitch of the door-open chime change) but excessive voltage drop isolated in that supply circuit may cause problems. If you're not happy with your measurements look for loose/corroded connections at the GP relay/batt + terminal/GP bus... I suspect it is unlikely you will find issues here, though, and in any case probably not at the root of its failure to start...

Do you know for certain whether this engine has ever run since the new timing belts and injection pump were installed? It is possible that the problem is a loss of prime and you're headed down the right track already, but when you see an otherwise nice car get put away immediately after having a lot of money invested in it, often raises a big red flag about the new parts that were installed ---- specifically, suggests the likelihood that whoever put those new parts on never succeeded in getting it going afterwards to begin with.

This is something you see fairly regularly with these cars, more than the average, due to their rarity and some of their unusual service requirements. The injection pump and timing belts on these motors are not parts that can simply be "replaced" in the sense of just taking the old one off and putting a new one on; since they affect the engine's crank-to-cam and injection timing, factors which are highly sensitive on a diesel engine, they have to be put together with precise methods and specifications, using an extensive set of special service tools. Even a small error can make the engine run poorly or not run at all. If the job is attempted without the correct tools and techniques, a gross error is virtually guaranteed, and engine damage is possible as well. Unless you know that the engine and fuel system work was done by someone equipped with *all* of the necessary special tools/skills/knowledge, I would not operate under the assumption that the engine is set up to run as-is other than needing to get fuel to it. In particular injection pump timing being off by more than just a couple degrees will not only prevent it from starting, but in some cases make it act just like there's no fuel getting to it -- sometimes they won't even make any smoke.

Agree regardless that first thing should be to ensure that the fuel system is bled all the way to the injectors; as stated, this can be surprisingly difficult and take a lot of time, and is aided massively by putting some kind of low-pressure pump in line before the fuel filter to force-feed the IP some fuel. Electric pump or manual hand primer bulb both work fine; all 6 injector union nuts loose; crank motor with foot to the floor while simultaneously running your electric or manual booster pump; as soon as you see fuel running out of all 6 you're done. (I often also disable the glow system by pulling the small black ground wire [spade terminal] off the bottom of the relay while doing this so that the starter spins slightly faster and to avoid unnecessary wear+tear on the plugs.) Once bled, tighten injector unions, reconnect GP relay if you disconnected it, and see if it starts. If it does not fire off almost immediately, then don't keep cranking it, you probably have more work to do.

If you get to this point, some further investigation of the car's history and who has been involved with it in the past, if possible, may be your most efficient first step towards getting it figured out. Who did the work, and what were their qualifications in terms of abilities and equipment. Was it ever on the road again after the last time it was in the shop? If you're getting fuel at the injectors and voltage at the plugs but have no smoke or fire, then unless you can verify beyond any doubt that it was set up correctly by whoever worked on it before, you need to go back to the beginning and check/correct the engine's basic timing setting. (Not hard to do -- the manuals you got may describe it, and if not you'll find plenty of help and advice here.)

One important tip: under no circumstances should you resort to starting fluid. Many mechanics are tempted to fire the motor using ether as a "clever trick" to get an uncooperative fuel system primed, but in the case of one of these, it WILL cause instantaneous and terminal engine damage, and you don't need it anyway..... if it needs primed you can do that easily on the starter, and if the timing is off then no amount of ether will get it to stay running no matter what until the timing is corrected. Don't turn to the bottle, you'll regret it if you do!

Congrats, sounds like a great find -- bet it will be a sweet runner once you get it sorted out!

Last edited by v8volvo; 03-13-2013 at 11:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:50 AM
morgan1227 morgan1227 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 31
Default success!

Well I invited over two gearheads from work, and we followed the priming procedure, and it worked! As more of the injectors started to get fuel, it would cough and sputter accordingly, until finally it fired up. That was a big hump to get over. Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Now a whole new set of problems, as in rough idle, tons of white smoke, and most pressingly, a pretty good drip of oil. Too much to not address, especially with a new driver. Looks like coming from where the oil pump is attached to the block (in front). Tightening everything didn't solve the problem. It looks like a real pain to change also, looking at the green book. I will continue this thread on the maintenance forum, but any advice on that?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-19-2013, 11:07 AM
v8volvo v8volvo is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Montana, USA
Vehicle: '86 745, '83 764
Posts: 1,618
Default

Great!

Rough running and white smoke generally = glow plugs and/or pump timing retarded, assuming engine mechanical condition is sound and fuel quality is to spec... are these issues present only immediately after startup or constant? Glow plugs would be primary suspect if smoking and skipping on startup but clearing up and running good after first minute or so; timing more likely culprit if symptoms persist for a while. Persistent single-cylinder miss and smoke can indicate incorrect valve adjustment or injector fault; if this seems to be the case you can try to isolate the affected cylinder by killing injectors one at a time (carefully crack open injector delivery pipe union with engine idling -- keep hands/arms/face away from fuel spray) and if a weak cylinder is identified, proceed with further diagnosis and repairs accordingly.

Air or severe restriction in fuel system can cause runability and emissions symptoms, do you see any air bubbles in the translucent fuel line running from fuel filter head to injection pump inlet? Have a fresh fuel filter on it? Any difficulty maintaining idle speed after revving, or unwillingness to restart shortly after shutting off?

Two members here just in the past two weeks have suffered catastrophic upper engine damage due to either old timing belts running beyond their service life, or flawed belt installation causing slipped timing. If it's a lot of white smoke you're seeing, and doesn't clear up very shortly after starting, then timing is a major question and if you conclude it's not timed perfectly, you can assume the rest of the belt installation (particularly torque on dampener bolt!) isn't perfect either -- anything less than perfect puts the engine in jeopardy. Not a risk worth running, as other members will attest; if there is any question at all in this area you may want to check it out before running the engine too much more.

Oil pump flange gasket is a chore to replace with engine in car but is not a particularly common failure item. You're sure it's not from the front main or cam seal? Any oil wetness inside the timing belt cover? If it is the flange gasket, it's a good amount of work but nothing tricky, hardest part is getting the pan down enough to get the pickup tube bolts out, requires hoisting engine and/or dropping crossmember. Will take some time but doable nonetheless, and the gasket is the same as used on a 5cyl gasser Audi, i.e., readily available. There was a member here who did this within the past year or two, might try searching for posts on the subject and getting in touch to see if he can offer any tips if you need to tackle this job.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.