D24T.com  

Go Back   D24T.com > Technical Discussion Area > Performance and aftermarket

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-23-2013, 10:12 AM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default Towing Mods: how hot can we safely get a D24T?

In one month I'm towing a 3,000lb Catalina 22 sailboat over the infamous "grapevine" mountain pass in southern california, with a peak altitude of 4,160 ft. My goal is to prepare my 1984 760 diesel in advance such that my engine survives this difficult task. My brakes and suspension are already heavily upgraded, so I'm *only* worried about engine cooling issues here. The boat trailer also has excellent and brand new brakes. The car is also factory rated for towing this weight.

Anchored off Santa Cruz Island this January, after towing to the launch ramp with a 740 Turbo:


Goals
-calculate EXACTLY how hot she can run, and monitor closely such that I pull over before damage occurs
-modify the car to maximize the margin of safety
-plan a safe driving strategy
-have an awesome trip sailing with my dad in the California Delta

Engineering starting premise
The engine will be fine as long as the coolant remains in the liquid state. Therefore, I will estimate as accurately as possible the true boiling point, and not allow the engine to get within 5 degrees Celsius of this value.

Please no comments about how I'm "over-thinking this." I'm an engineer, and I enjoy solving problems this way.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SantaCruz 13.jpg (96.1 KB, 67 views)
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI

Last edited by casioqv; 07-24-2013 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-23-2013, 10:34 AM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default

Cooling concentration and pressure considerations

I tested my cooling system for pressure handling with a bicycle pump, and tested the concentration of antifreeze with a float hydrometer.

It turns out the cap is opening at 10psi, and I'm at 30% antifreeze. Both are way below spec. My Zerex g-05 ethylene glycol based coolant is rated to boil at 128C with 15psi of head pressure at a 50/50 ratio.

To raise the concentration, I'm going to replace coolant with pure antifreeze according to this formula:

(0.3(3-a)+a)/3=0.5
where a = antifreeze volume replacing current fluid
0.3 = current concentration
3 gal = system volume
0.5 = desired concentration

This suggests I need to replace 0.86 gallons of coolant with pure antifreeze to get up to a 50% mixture. To raise the opening pressure, I ordered a new 16psi radiator cap.

I will also be cleaning out the radiator with degreaser, as my radiator is still clogged with oil from the oil cooler blowing. I'll also be adding a VERY VERY large external oil cooler using aircraft grade hardware.

I still need to open up some basic chemistry textbooks to estimate my final boiling point. I'll be using a 16 psi radiator cap, but on the mountain pass at 4,160 ft I'll be at 12.7 psi ambient pressure (2.1psi below sea level pressure) so I need to consider this factor as well. I'm guessing the boiling point will be somewhere around 125C, allowing me to safely run up to 120C.

Edit: Boiling point estimate
Based on this PDF, a good rule of thumb is that 1 psi of pressure raises the boiling point by 3 degrees F. Therefore, based on my coolant specs I expect my boiling point will be about 127C at 4,160 ft with a 16psi cap and a 50/50 mixture. Therefore, I can safely run up to 122C, and will set an audible alarm at 120C for the climb.

Driving Plan

I'll try to hit the pass at the coldest possible time, which should also have the least traffic. This means hitting the summit right before sunrise, which means between 5am and 6am where it should be under 70F even on the hottest august days.
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI

Last edited by casioqv; 07-23-2013 at 11:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-23-2013, 10:49 AM
Nevadan Nevadan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Reno, Nevada
Vehicle: 740/745 D24T will be mine again soon
Posts: 253
Default

In a reply on my "Ebay radiator" post, 745turbogreasel said to us 1/4 box of Cascade dishwashing detergent to clean out the radiator. I had used Tide in the past on my 1957 Mercedes 180D and it worked fairly well. It did take several flushes with clean water to get all the soap out. I removed the thermostat to make sure the flow was good.

The oil cooler is an excellent idea. I put a small Volvo turbo oil cooler on, using the Volvo sandwich plate attached below the oil to water cooler so I get the benefit of the heat exchanger plus the air to oil cooler.

I'm thinking if this engine can pull a Pinzgauer it can handle the boat.
__________________
J.D. in Reno
1958 Mercedes 180D (rebuilding now)
1985 VW Jetta 1.6TD
1985 Volvo 745 Wagon 2.4TD (sold but still maintain it)
1987 VW Quantum Syncro 2.2 (converting to 2.0TD)
1996 TDI Passat
1997 Chevy 3/4 ton 6.5TD
2006 V10 TDI Touareg
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-23-2013, 10:56 AM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadan View Post
In a reply on my "Ebay radiator" post, 745turbogreasel said to us 1/4 box of Cascade dishwashing detergent to clean out the radiator.
I already flushed about 10 times with laundry soap, and it now drains clear... but it seems to mysteriously still run warmer than before! It's a 11 month old Nissens radiator. I'm going to try removing it from the car, and soaking internally with purple degreaser as commonly done with Volvo intercoolers. I'll also be cleaning out a used mid-90s Volvo intercooler to install at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadan View Post
I'm thinking if this engine can pull a Pinzgauer it can handle the boat.
Any idea what those things weigh? I'd imagine the Pinz has lower gears and a vastly superior cooling system. I've come to the conclusion that the D24T Volvo cooling system is crappy for some reason, because it runs much hotter uphill yet makes much less horsepower than the Volvo red block engines in the same car. Maybe the red blocks flow water at a higher rate or something. Even with a brand new radiator, tropical fan clutch, new thermostat, and cast iron water pump I can hit 116C uphill with my D24T. A stock red block turbo making 50% more horsepower with a smaller radiator and a less efficient engine would never get over 100C under the same conditions. The same tropical fan clutch also kicks in at much lower temps on the red block despite the same thermostat opening temps, suggesting much better heat transfer to the radiator in the red block.
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI

Last edited by casioqv; 07-23-2013 at 11:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-23-2013, 11:12 AM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadan View Post
my 1957 Mercedes 180D
Any pics of your car? The ponton is one of my favorite cars, I've always wanted one!
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:26 PM
745 TurboGreasel 745 TurboGreasel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Freedom CA
Vehicle: 85 745, 84Suburban 96Ram
Posts: 509
Default

I find if I drive to keep the EGT below 1250, the temp behaves quite nicely no matter how long a hill I'm pulling.

IMO gauge sender placement and something in the design not allowing the head to reject heat fast enough are working against us.I think having the cooling system configured in such a way as to have a constant out flow at the back of the head may help.

As far as the car half of the cooling system, it's the same as a 960 which works great, even with a v8.

Meth injection to keep EGT down might be an effective approach.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-23-2013, 12:48 PM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 745 TurboGreasel View Post
I find if I drive to keep the EGT below 1250, the temp behaves quite nicely no matter how long a hill I'm pulling.
Interesting, I've had an EGT gauge installed for years but haven't drilled and tapped for the sensor. I'll go ahead and do that this weekend. Is a metal plate over the EGR port an okay mount location?

My temp sensor is actually an aftermarket digital one mounted to a vacuum pump bolt. My handheld infared thermometer says that the head has relatively uniform temps, always at the same level as what the digital one on the vacuum pump bolt reads.
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI

Last edited by casioqv; 07-23-2013 at 12:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-24-2013, 08:12 AM
Nevadan Nevadan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Reno, Nevada
Vehicle: 740/745 D24T will be mine again soon
Posts: 253
Default 1957 Mercedes 180D pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
Any pics of your car? The ponton is one of my favorite cars, I've always wanted one!
The 180D is the first diesel I started working on about 7 years ago and it's the one that got me hooked on diesels.

I only have a few pictures of this car but it gives you an idea of the before and after. It's not perfect but it's my daily driver and is perfect for getting around town and for short trips around Reno. I have driven it over Donner Pass on I-80 to Sacramento and it never went slower than 50 mph in the steepest sections. On flat ground I can run 65 - 70 mph all day long!!



__________________
J.D. in Reno
1958 Mercedes 180D (rebuilding now)
1985 VW Jetta 1.6TD
1985 Volvo 745 Wagon 2.4TD (sold but still maintain it)
1987 VW Quantum Syncro 2.2 (converting to 2.0TD)
1996 TDI Passat
1997 Chevy 3/4 ton 6.5TD
2006 V10 TDI Touareg

Last edited by Nevadan; 07-24-2013 at 08:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-24-2013, 09:13 AM
casioqv casioqv is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 153
Default

Beautiful. I think it's a close tie between a matte black Ponton and the 300 Adenauer for classiest looking car ever made. In my book, yours wins since it's also diesel. The performance doesn't sound too bad either, it's a rocketship compared to my Isuzu Trooper which takes similar passes at only 25mph. I've done Donner Pass only once, in a 1983 760 Diesel but remember that it was formidable- very steep and high altitude.

If you ever want to sell it contact me!
__________________
'84 760 D24T/M46
'86 Isuzu Trooper Turbo Diesel
'01 VW Golf TDI

Last edited by casioqv; 07-24-2013 at 09:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-24-2013, 12:45 PM
745 TurboGreasel 745 TurboGreasel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Freedom CA
Vehicle: 85 745, 84Suburban 96Ram
Posts: 509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
Interesting, I've had an EGT gauge installed for years but haven't drilled and tapped for the sensor. I'll go ahead and do that this weekend. Is a metal plate over the EGR port an okay mount location?
I'd think so, but I used a non EGR manifold.
20 minutes well spent for sure, it helps you track heat generation and economy in real time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.