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Old 11-20-2010, 03:14 PM
dieselnutjob dieselnutjob is offline
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Default 5 cyl TDI into a RWD Peugeot?

I have been thinking about this idea for some time now, and I know it isn't exactly about Volvos but I after reading posts here and elsewhere I think that the best knowledge about this idea might be in these forums, and these seems the least inappropriate section.

So, I own a 1976 Peugeot 604 here in the UK. They are both rare and unloved here. I really like the car but:-

1. The engines are troublesome as they get older. It is what you would know as a B27 PRV engine. Last year I changed all of the rocker arms and one head bolt was damaged. I ended up replacing it with a used headbolt as they are no longer available. The top end is already sounding rattly again. Most Volvos in the UK are 4 cyl and getting a good replacement B27 is kind of unlikely.
2. Mine is a manual which you would think is a good thing, but I have a weak left knee, I live in London where the traffic is awful, and the 604 has a piece of dashboard that sticks out exactly so that your left knee hits it as you operate the clutch. Most 604s were automatics and when you drive mine you can see why.
3. I would like to drive the car a lot more but the fuel consumption is awful. Petrol is £1.16 per litre which is about $7 US per US gallon I think. The car is doing about 15mpg in US numbers

What I really need is a big diesel engine with an automatic gearbox, and put the petrol engine safely in storage in case I ever want to return it to standard.

So what engine?
The obvious candidate is the Peugeot 505 2.5 turbo diesel 4 cyl. The problem is that this engine is heavy, noisy and not very powerful. It dates back to the 1950s and is frankly a boat anchor by modern standards.

Then I found out that
The D24 came with a ZF 4HP22 transmission (same as a Peugeot 505)
All VW/Audi 5 and 6 cyl engines have the same bolt pattern.

So in theory a 5 cyl TDI from an Audi 100 would bolt up to either a Peugeot or Volvo 4HP22 transmission with a Volvo bellhousing. The 4HP22 would need a Peugeot tail section to attach it to the 604 propshaft/torque tube.

Lastly I believe that the Audi 100 and possible early A6 electronics are not too complex. My wife had an Audi 80 TDI once and unlike later VW/Audis the ECU is somewhat separate from the rest of the car and contains no immobiliser stuff in there.

The 5 cyl TDI engine is also powerful, sounds nice and is very efficient, and probably not too long to fit in the 604.

Here are some pictures that I scanned in from an Audi 100 workshop manual




The arrangement of the inlet manifold and the turbo look very similar to pics I have seen of the D24T on these forums.

So now some questions for you guys
1. I read that the D24T is more upright than the D24 in Volvos so that the turbo doesn't hit the inner wing. Does this mean that they have different bell housings? or does the transmission just sit in the car at a slight angle in one of them?

2. The 604 engine bay is 34" wide between the inner wings/suspension turrets. How does that compare with a 240 or 760?

3. Because my 604 is right hand drive the steering column is on the right and runs quite close to the bell housing. On V6 PRV 604 right hand drive models have a different bell housing that put the starter motor on the left. Where would a Volvo D24 4HP20 bellhousing put the starter motor? If anyone has any photos of one of these I'd love to see it.

thanks for any thoughts
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:34 AM
dieselnutjob dieselnutjob is offline
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I don't have any pics of the underside of the 604, but this is one of a 505 which is essentially the same (in fact the front cross member, suspension and steering is all interchangeable.



As you can see where the steering column meets the rack it is extremely close to the bell housing.
On four cylinder Peugeots they mounted the starter motor up high, kind of near where the injection pump is on the Audi TDI.
On V6 Peugeots the starter motor is much lower hence the different bell housing for left/right hand drive
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Old 11-22-2010, 02:58 PM
EvoStevo EvoStevo is offline
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The bell housings are different between the D24 and D24T. However, you are correct in that both engines have the same transmission bolt pattern. I wish I could offer more help than that. It sounds like a fun project.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:29 AM
dieselnutjob dieselnutjob is offline
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A 760GLE turbo auto popped up on ebay this morning
really nice looking by the way at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=270667575346

It has this engine shot


The engine does look very upright and I suspect would be too high to go under the 604 bonnet at that angle.
The odd thing is that there is quite a gap between the inlet manifold and the suspension turret, and I don't think that the turbo sticks out much more than the manifold, so why did they put it in so upright? Is there a big "chassis" rail lower down that I can't see or something?

Looks like I would need a normally aspirated bell housing.

Are the auto gear ratios different between turbo and NA or does it just have a different axle ratio?
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:34 AM
dieselnutjob dieselnutjob is offline
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actually, instead of making assumptions...
is there any chance that someone could measure the highest point of the engine relative to the centre line of the crankshaft as installed in a Volvo?
I mean pure vertical height so that I could see it if would hit the bonnet (=hood in US)
I suspect that the 5 cyl TDI is a similar height. I guess I'll have to find one in a wrecker's yard and measure it.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:12 AM
v8volvo v8volvo is offline
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Believe it or not, I have actually worked on a 604 Turbodiesel. It is one of only three or four in the state, according to the owner (and we have more Pugs here than in most places because we have a big Pug shop in town and a fair sized support community). I would be surprised if there were more than 50 of them left on the road here in the US.

The one that comes to our shop is actually a pretty neat car... it is a 4-cylinder turbodiesel with automatic trans, and over 390,000 original miles! It actually drives quite nicely. The engine is noisy outside the car but it's quiet inside and has plenty of power even with the automatic. It's a good runner. It was the first car I had driven in a long time that I liked almost enough to consider it as an alternative to a Volvo 700 series TD (though it didn't have that sweet straight six sound ). It rode and handled great. I see it around town all the time. Probably won't be too long before it comes in for its last oil change before it hits 400k...

If I were you, I would try to find a Peugeot TD drivetrain, or a whole TD car to swap parts from, rather than trying to shoehorn a 5cyl TDI in there. The Peugeot motor is very compact, since it's a pushrod design. The VW engines are quite tall, being an OHC motor with the cam set directly above the valves and bucket tappets in use, and the 2.5 TDI is probably even taller than the D24T since the D24T is 400cc/cylinder while the 2.5 is 500cc, which in the case of the 1.9L engine versus the 1.6, is achieved partially through a taller block (IIRC -- not sure of my memory on that but believe I'm remembering correctly). The ZF 4HP22L used behind the D24T was only ever available with a bellhousing set up for the 700 series installation position, which is the more straight up-and-down style. Volvo 240s with the D24 non-turbo engine used more of a slant in the motor's position, but they never used the ZF trans. The only automatic they ever got was the BW55, which is an old style 3-speed clunker with no lockup converter. I have driven them in NA 240 diesels and they are OK around town but would be no fun on the highway. The BW55 is similar in design to the later AW70/71/72 transmissions used in Volvo redblock gassers in the '80s and '90s, so maybe if you really cared enough you could somehow build a nice AW70L that would bolt up to a D24 or 2.5 TDI, but it would be a lot of work...

The other issue you will run into with trying to run a D24T automatic behind a TDI engine is that the shift points and converter stall speed will all be wrong... IDI engines reach their powerband at a much higher RPM than DI engines do, and they top out a good 500-800 rpm higher as well. Your 2.5 TDI's performance would not be optimized with a D24T's trans behind it.

I can measure a spare motor at work tomorrow for height.

A better idea for your situation might be to get a 1.9 TDI VW motor and install it with a big slant, to keep height under control (like it is in a modern Audi or Passat), then figure out a way to adapt it to a Peugeot transmission that will install easily in terms of mounting, driveline connection, etc. But the truth is, they work pretty nicely with the original style Peugeot drivetrain in there too, I can vouch for that... so going that route might be the easiest and turn out a lot nicer than you think.
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