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Old 03-16-2020, 09:23 AM
blix99 blix99 is offline
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Default Help - 2.4 diesel DW engine won't run after IP shaft seal replacement

Hello.

I hope this is the best place for this. My vehicle is stuck on my drive after changing the injector pump shaft seal.

It's a 1983 DW straight six, non turbo diesel engine.

Here is a video of what it does. It will just keep doing this over and over again.

drive.google.com/open?id=1X_L4-HOMlsqrHJ5mC4woUdN_3d7ajwC9

When it does fire for the second or so, it sounds OK. I know it's only for s split second but it sound like all cylinders (but maybe not??)

I've not had it long. It's a VW LT28d camper.
It had been sat for maybe 3 years in dry storage before I bought it last month. It wouldn't run when I collected it but was running fine before it was parked up. Once I got it home I put a little diesel in, primed the injector pump (IP) and turned it over.
It ran after a little cranking and drew the fuel up the pipes.
It idled fine but with quite a bit of white smoke.

I noticed bubbles coming up the pipe from the fuel filter. I fixed this (new filter and checked incoming connections)
It still ran fine after this but the fuel would draw back towards the filter (and beyond) once the engine was stopped. This required much cranking again every time to get the fuel back up to the pump and then start.

So, I tracked this down to air drawing in via the shaft seal on the IP. I bought a new seal and set about changing this.

I did this without removing the IP. This is what I did:

Set the flywheel to TDC (looking through an access slot below the IP in the bell housing) The flywheel has a thin line and a zero that lines up with a point of the bell housing.
This also lined up the marks on the IP drive pulley and the housing. All this seemed OK.

With all this lined up, I locked and removed the IP pulley and belt, pulled the old seal out, put the new one in, replaced the pulley and belt and tried to start it.

The fuel eventually came up the pipe and now doesn't draw back, which is great but ... it just won't run now.
As far as i know, nothing was moved during this (flywheel or IP shaft) and all the timing marks seem to line up the same as before i began but the engine just won't run (as per the video above)

I've checked that each injector has fuel by cracking open each injector line on top and all seems OK. Cutoff solenoid seems fine (and pretty new). I've replaced all of the return pipes on the injectors. All this was done before the shaft seal change and it ran OK but with excess air drawing in.

Is there anything I'm missing? Could the IP timing be out? Could eliminating the excess air have affected something else? Airlock somewhere? Or something else?

I'm just stumped and just don't have the expertise to diagnose this. I've tried everything i can think of but it's still stuck on my drive. I just need it to run properly so i can move it.

Any help or suggestions would be very greatly received.
Thanks very much in advance.

Last edited by blix99; 03-16-2020 at 09:27 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2020, 04:31 PM
Goteborg Vapenfabrik Goteborg Vapenfabrik is offline
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Hello and welcome. Verifying the correct injection pump timing is a good place to start. There's good information in the diesel engine and drivetrain section on IP timing.
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Old 03-16-2020, 06:50 PM
ngoma ngoma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
Could the IP timing be out?
Yes, I can see one step in your process that could have thrown off the timing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
This is what I did:

Set the flywheel to TDC (looking through an access slot below the IP in the bell housing) The flywheel has a thin line and a zero that lines up with a point of the bell housing.
This also lined up the marks on the IP drive pulley and the housing. All this seemed OK.

With all this lined up, I locked and removed the IP pulley and belt, pulled the old seal out, put the new one in, replaced the pulley and belt and tried to start it.
There at the end, after replacing the pulley and belt, did you verify TDC and the notch on the IP pulley all lined up as before? Usually when timed correctly, at engine TDC the IP shaft doesn't like to stay in that position due to the heavy internal spring tension on the ramps-- it wants to jump forward or back to a "resting" spot. So you would have really had to fight it to be able to get the the belt back on.

Theoretically your method otherwise should work, as the IP pulley is keyed to the IP shaft.
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Old 03-16-2020, 11:59 PM
blix99 blix99 is offline
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Thank you both for your replies and advice.

OK. I'll get a gauge and set the timing properly.

I did intend to borrow / buy a gauge, because I'd like to get it spot on, but thought that setting the marks up might be enough to tell me if timing was the main problem.
I'm not sure how critical even half a mm could be or if the margins are wider than this and it's something else?

What I mean is, if timing is out by an imperceptible fraction, could this be the issue?

What I might try, just as a quick test, is to advance and then retard the IP timing slightly to see it the symptoms change.

Last edited by blix99; 03-17-2020 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:06 AM
ngoma ngoma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
...but thought that setting the marks up might be enough to tell me if timing was the main problem.
Sometimes can get one running but lining up the notches to the marks is just a gross approximation. ALSO, you can have all the notches lined up at TDC, but the wrong TDC (crankshaft rotates twice to each IP rotation). Could you have inadvertently rotated the crank once while the IP was disconnected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
I'm not sure how critical even half a mm could be or if the margins are wider than this and it's something else?
If you are describing mm viewing at the notches, yes, half a mm visible change there equates to a larger change at the gauge, but yet, seems like it should be close enough to start, if all else is viable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
I've checked that each injector has fuel by cracking open each injector line on top and all seems OK. Cutoff solenoid seems fine (and pretty new). I've replaced all of the return pipes on the injectors. All this was done before the shaft seal change and it ran OK but with excess air drawing in.
So after replacing the seal, you didn't test for fuel (no foam or bubbles) spurting out the end of the injector hardlines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
What I mean is, if timing is out by an imperceptible fraction, could this be the issue?
It can be, for some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
What I might try, just as a quick test, is to advance and then retard the IP timing slightly to see it the symptoms change.
Probably worth a shot. Are the GPs functioning? Be careful about straining the injector hardlines if you are going to be rotating the IP. The preferred method is to rotate the camshaft rear cam on the camshaft, but this is only recommended if you have the gauge setup and a cam sprocket counterhold tool.
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  #6  
Old 03-18-2020, 12:19 AM
blix99 blix99 is offline
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Thanks so much for taking the time and such a comprehensive reply.

I didn't move anything when taking the IP pulley off, so am pretty confident that it's TDC on No1, as this is where it all was when running OK, with the air leaks

Sorry, I typed in haste originally. I did check for fuel at the injectors after I had done this. I also primed to low pressure side of the pump too.

Based on what you say, I'm inclined to think the IP timing is the issue. I assumed lining the marks up was adequate to get it running but it seems it's a much, much smaller margin that this.

This makes sense when I think about it since the flywheel is maybe 400mm + across (at a guess) whereas the IP pulley is maybe 90mm. The degs and mins of these circumferences, in mm or fractions of, is massively different.

Anyway, I couldn't find anyone I knew who had a timing gauge, so I've ordered one. Should be here in the next couple of days.

I'll let you know how i get on but hopefully (hopefully : ) this sorts it.

Thanks again very much. I appreciate your time
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:33 AM
blix99 blix99 is offline
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Whoo bloody hoo : )

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Nr...yVnGEH0rpgWPXX

Bought a timing gauge, just a cheap one. The brass rod that came with it; to place inside the end of the Injection pump and then inside the gauge body was too long for the VE pump so I used a drill bit. Necessity is the mother of invention and all that : )

Anyway, took me a while to get it to the right setting: 80 on the gauge (100th of mm? or whatever)

I adjusted this by moving the end cam cog rather than trying to rotate the IP itself. I'd tried turning the pump before which was almost impossible and certainly wouldn't have allowed any accuracy.

So, this has placed the marks on the IP cog past the mark on the bracket, which turning the pump wouldn't have done but I know this is the case and am happy with it. I might fix this at some point if i have to doo any other work around here but the main thing, nothing was broken and it starts / runs pretty well now.

What I will say to anyone who might stumble across this thread. Static timing of the Injection pump without a gauge is more or less impossible.
Turning the flywheel through the access slot under the IP, even just a fraction of mm had a huge effect on the reading of the gauge, which had a tolerance of + or - 0.02mm, which is pretty small by anyone's calculations.

I had to adjust several times to get the setting right. It looked OK a few times but when i rotated the engine and came back to TDC, it wasn't quite correct, probably due to tension in the IP. Once it was right, I rotated the crank by hand a couple of times with the gauge still in to check that it came back to 0.80 at TDC.

The only way you'd reach a proper setting without a gauge, as far as i can see, if via pure chance.

By the way, I referred to the IP timing sticky here, which was really helpful:
https://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1684

Thanks so much for all your help. I really appreciate your time in replying and advice.
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Old 03-23-2020, 06:00 AM
Goteborg Vapenfabrik Goteborg Vapenfabrik is offline
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Improvising a drill bit is quite clever. Your engine is running very well now! Just be sure the fuel pipes aren't under unnecessary stress from attempting to rotate the IP to set the timing. Cracking the unions on the top of the injectors will relieve stress on the pipes. Congratulations on such a nice van.

Last edited by Goteborg Vapenfabrik; 03-23-2020 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:28 AM
v8volvo v8volvo is offline
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Cheers! Sounds like a very healthy engine now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blix99 View Post
What I will say to anyone who might stumble across this thread. Static timing of the Injection pump without a gauge is more or less impossible.
Turning the flywheel through the access slot under the IP, even just a fraction of mm had a huge effect on the reading of the gauge, which had a tolerance of + or - 0.02mm, which is pretty small by anyone's calculations.

I had to adjust several times to get the setting right. It looked OK a few times but when i rotated the engine and came back to TDC, it wasn't quite correct, probably due to tension in the IP. Once it was right, I rotated the crank by hand a couple of times with the gauge still in to check that it came back to 0.80 at TDC.

The only way you'd reach a proper setting without a gauge, as far as i can see, if via pure chance.
Those are very good points, thanks for emphasizing them. Your last reflection in particular is one that is helpful for folks to see, and IMO completely true.

Unfortunately it does occur every now and then that someone happens to land on a functional timing setting by pure chance, without using precision tools or methods -- except they don't realize that they succeeded only due to blind luck, and instead convince themselves they have cleverly found a shortcut around doing the job correctly. Then they preach their "clever" method to everyone who will listen, and cause anyone who hears it confusion and trouble!

We had a case of this here on the forum just earlier this week, in another thread, with a member describing an encounter with someone who advised them that there is no need whatsoever for special tools to set timing. Fortunately that member asked first whether that was valid advice, rather than just taking it and suffering the consequences, as many do.

Anyway, successful outcomes like this one are very helpful in letting folks who are in doubt see the benefit of having the full information provided by the proper methods and equipment. Thanks for reporting the experience.

Would be fun to see more info and photos of your van, we never had those here so it's always interesting to see one of these engines in a different installation.
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2020, 07:58 AM
blix99 blix99 is offline
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Hello again.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm still trying to get my van engine to work properly. I have a new question but will post that separately.

Here are a couple of photos of what my van is like and where the engine is located.

As mentioned earlier, it's a 1983 VW LT28D. The 28 signifies the gross weight of the unladen vehicle. The D is 'diesel'

This van would have been taken direct from the VW factory to Karmann, who produced many different camper conversions on behalf of Volkswagen.

Anyway. The engine is located in the cab, between the seats - actually in this case underneath the passenger bench seat. The bench seat folds up and out of the door to enable work on the engine from inside; predominantly accessed from above.
There is a solid, removable cover which clamps down over the engine when not being worked on.

I've not had this cover on very much over the last two months

Here are a few photos (sorry the first is sideways):







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2.4d, air leak, dw engine, injector pump shaft seal

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