Rebuilt Pinzgauer engine, hard starting, smoke....

[Sethsquatch]

Hey all!

So my Pinzgauer has been in the shop for over 4 months now (!) and is finally back together, and running. It basically has new everything, from the head gasket up, turbo, injectors, injection pump, etc.
Now that it's back together, it has a hell of a time starting, like several cycles of the glow plugs, cranking for 30+ seconds before it finally catches and idles, this being on a cold day. (40f)
As soon as it started, it ran good, but smoked a lot, black smoke at idle and more as it was driven and revved.
I have heard there's adjustments on the timing of the pump, and also on the pump itself as far as lessening the fuel...I'm not a technical person, which is why I had a shop do the work, and he's fairly confident he has the pump timed correctly. Just wondering if there's a diagram of that pump somewhere of the adjustments on it. Also any advice you'd have to dial it in.
Thank you so much!

[anders]

I would definitely confirm injection timing. Sounds like it might be retard or even 180* out. Fuel rate adjustment won’t make it smoke at idle, if the engine is timed correctly and healthy, more fuel equals more RPM.

[v8volvo]

Agreed on timing being the first suspect.

When you say the guy who worked on it is "fairly confident" he has the pump timed correctly, what do you mean? There's nothing to be confident or not confident about... It either IS timed correctly, or it isn't.

There's a specification and a process, involving a measurement with a dial indicator. You want to find out whether the guy who did the work has the the right equipment and knowledge, and if he understands how it works, and what their actual timing measurement is if the answer is yes.

[anders]

You can ask the mechanic a simple question, what did he set the timing at?

[Sethsquatch]

Hey guys, sorry it took me so long to respond, my email alerts weren't coming through.
The short answer is yes, the mechanic timed it with the dial gauge.
The long answer is muddied. My pinzgauer was originally an automatic transmission, and has been converted to manual. With that done, he was wondering if there was an issue with timing marks, because of the bellhousing. (maybe this makes sense to you?)
Also, once it did start, it ran pretty darn good, which makes me think it just needs some adjusting of fuel flow rather than timing. This isn't my area of expertise which is why I'm here though. The guy from UK who rebuilds pinzgauers is confident that it's just an adjustment issue not a timing issue. Please give me any and all advice! Thank you in advance!

[ngoma]

A: What did he time it to? (Usually expressed as 0.xx mm, ex. 0.95 mm)

It may have been asked before, I did not see the answer.

B: What method did he use?

C: Were any "adjustments" made to the injection pump that may have thrown it out of adjustment?

D: Is it still hard to start or was that difficulty just the first time?

[Sethsquatch]

So I don't know that.. Is it not just timed to TDC?
Not sure on method, I will ask.
It is a brand new rebuilt pump from the UK.... So?
It didn't start hard at all before the rebuild
But it has basically all new components from the head gasket up so that's why we're unsure of the issue.

Originally Posted by ngoma

A: What did he time it to? (Usually



expressed as 0.xx mm, ex. 0.95 mm)

It may have been asked before, I did not see the answer.

B: What method did he use?

C: Were any "adjustments" made to the injection pump that may have thrown it out of adjustment?

D: Is it still hard to start or was that difficulty just the first time?

[v8volvo]

Originally Posted by Sethsquatch

The short answer is yes, the mechanic timed it with the dial gauge.
The long answer is muddied. My pinzgauer was originally an automatic transmission, and has been converted to manual. With that done, he was wondering if there was an issue with timing marks, because of the bellhousing. (maybe this makes sense to you?)
Also, once it did start, it ran pretty darn good, which makes me think it just needs some adjusting of fuel flow rather than timing. This isn't my area of expertise which is why I'm here though. The guy from UK who rebuilds pinzgauers is confident that it's just an adjustment issue not a timing issue.

Originally Posted by Sethsquatch

So I don't know that.. Is it not just timed to TDC?

...basically all new components from the head gasket up so that's why we're unsure of the issue.

This might be an interesting challenge to sort out. Since many factors changed all at once (auto>standard conversion, new fuel pump, engine internal work), you are faced with a detective's game determining which one is the cause for the trouble. In this situation the way to go is to start systematically ruling out possibilities. May be tedious and slow, but it'll get you to the solution eventually.

First, echoing one of the earlier questions, can you describe again what the symptoms are? You say hard to start -- is that every time you try to start it, it takes a long period of cranking, or just the first time after it was reassembled, or just the first start of the day, or...? Both cold and when restarting a warm engine, or only when cold, or only when warm?

Able to take a video showing a starting attempt, both when cold and fully warm, so we can see/hear?

And you're saying it runs pretty well once it finally does start, but, you also said earlier that it smoked badly after it started. Tell us a little more about what the engine's performance is like when it does start running.
- Smoke?
- If so, When? At idle, or just under heavy load? Smoke when cold but then stops smoking when it warms up, or is it smoking all the time regardless of temp, or only for a few seconds after start then none at all? What color smoke if present, white or blue or gray or black?
- Power? Does it feel like it did before? Better? Worse? Different in some way?
- Other observations? Temperatures? Sound? Smoothness?

A little more background on the work that was done:
- Injection pump replacement and engine cylinder head work: sounds like the engine was running fine before this was done, what was the reason for the repairs? Just proactive maintenance/restoration? Or was there a problem being fixed and if so, what?
- Trans conversion auto to manual: what parts were used? Was it a complete set of Pinzgauer specific transmission/drivetrain/flywheel/clutch parts? Was it a correct D24T flywheel with the TDC mark for timing? Or did the mechanic have to "get creative" in some way that could have meant there's no TDC mark for the crankshaft to use, or he had to make one of his own that might not be accurate? Or parts used from a different vehicle (like a Volvo) for the swap that might be mismatched in some way and throw a timing attempt off the track?
- What's the complete list of engine parts that were replaced? Photo of a work order?
- How were parts sourced? Any chance that some of the specific Pinzgauer parts for its 24-volt electrical system could have been accidentally subbed with Volvo/LT parts for a 12-volt system? If your new injection pump has 12v solenoids in it, then [they will fail]. Likewise if the glow plugs were replaced with parts designed for a 12v system, [they will quickly overheat and fail].

As a general rule, difficulty starting is usually one of the following things:
- Glow plug issues (some not working, or a circuit problem, or wrong style/poor quality glow plugs)
- Injection and/or cam timing wrong
- Loss of fuel system prime (air getting into fuel pump and/or fuel leaking out and/or severe fuel supply restriction)
- Too slow starter cranking speed (battery/starter/connection issues)
- Base engine compression problem (ring/valve leakage or too thick headgasket)

Each of these potential causes presents symptoms in a slightly different way, though. They all make the engine hard to start but each has its own signature tell-tales from what is observed and when (hot/cold etc). The added details on what you are seeing the engine do will help us narrow it down.


*Edit, I was not thinking clearly when I originally wrote above that 12v components in a 24v vehicle would not get hot enough or not work correctly. The opposite case is true: 12v parts (both glow plugs and solenoids) supplied with 24v will overheat and burn out, and/or the glow plugs would probably pop the glow circuit fuse from excessive current draw. 24v lugs in a 12v vehicle is the scenario where they would not generate enough heat to aid starting and a 24v solenoid supplied with only 12v would probably work only partially or not at all. I'm correcting this for posterity.

But, if it smokes when running and/or has trouble starting when warm as well as cold, the glow plug system is probably unrelated to the issue anyway.

[v8volvo]

Also, to the questions from Anders and ngoma asked above, exact answers from the mechanic will help:

What is the numeric timing setting the mechanic used?

And is he certain he didn't time it 180 degrees off?

Even if the reading on the dial is correct, meaning the IP is timed correctly to the crankshaft, you still can be 180 out on the camshaft. Does he understand how that works?

We're not trying to question his competence. However, it's very common with these engines for a skilled and experienced mechanic to do a lot of excellent high quality work on mechanical reconditioning, but then get tripped up on the final steps with the timing process. What makes it tricky is that it is very specific, and demands patience and a real understanding not just of the technical procedures involved, but of what they are fundamentally intended to accomplish. Those who don't try to reach that understanding are always tempted to take shortcuts on the steps, not realizing why they are necessary. This is why the first questions we all asked were about the timing process used.

[Sethsquatch]

So this is the type of intelligence that made me come here!

The transmission swap happened before I purchased the vehicle. I don't know what that means for timing marks.
We started on things that were leaking and ended up just replacing things for preventative maintenance.
It has a new "stage 2" Turbo from SGB all terrain in UK. He also supplied the rebuilt injection pump and new injectors. It did come with 12v solenoids but we swapped them to the old 24v.
The exhaust manifold was machined as it had a leak where it bolted on.
Then new Radiator, water pump, belts, hoses, head gasket.
The mechanic sourced new glow plugs and I bet that's an issue that they are 12v and not 24v.
When we cranked it to try to get it started, it smoked a lot, thick grey black smoke. Then when driving, not terrible but constant black chugging smoke. I only drove it once, and didn't pay that much attention to it unfortunately. 😑
I will find out what he timed it for and get back on here. Thank you for all the help!!

Originally Posted by v8volvo

This might be an interesting challenge to sort out. Since many factors changed all at once (auto>standard conversion, new fuel pump, engine internal work), you are faced with a detective's game determining which one is the cause for the trouble. In this situation the way to go is to start systematically ruling out possibilities. May be tedious and slow, but it'll get you to the solution eventually.

First, echoing one of the earlier questions, can you describe again what the symptoms are? You say hard to start -- is that every time you try to start it, it takes a long period of cranking, or just the first time after it was reassembled, or just the first start of the day, or...? Both cold and when restarting a warm engine, or only when cold, or only when warm?

Able to take a video showing a starting attempt, both when cold and fully warm, so we can see/hear?

And you're saying it runs pretty well once it finally does start, but, you also said earlier that it smoked badly after it started. Tell us a little more about what the engine's performance is like when it does start running.
- Smoke?
- If so, When? At idle, or just under heavy load? Smoke when cold but then stops smoking when it warms up, or is it smoking all the time regardless of temp, or only for a few seconds after start then none at all? What color smoke if present, white or blue or gray or black?
- Power? Does it feel like it did before? Better? Worse? Different in some way?
- Other observations? Temperatures? Sound? Smoothness?

A little more background on the work that was done:
- Injection pump replacement and engine cylinder head work: sounds like the engine was running fine before this was done, what was the reason for the repairs? Just proactive maintenance/restoration? Or was there a problem being fixed and if so, what?
- Trans conversion auto to manual: what parts were used? Was it a complete set of Pinzgauer specific transmission/drivetrain/flywheel/clutch parts? Was it a correct D24T flywheel with the TDC mark for timing? Or did the mechanic have to "get creative" in some way that could have meant there's no TDC mark for the crankshaft to use, or he had to make one of his own that might not be accurate? Or parts used from a different vehicle (like a Volvo) for the swap that might be mismatched in some way and throw a timing attempt off the track?
- What's the complete list of engine parts that were replaced? Photo of a work order?
- How were parts sourced? Any chance that some of the specific Pinzgauer parts for its 24-volt electrical system could have been accidentally subbed with Volvo/LT parts for a 12-volt system? If your new injection pump has 12v solenoids in it, then it won't work well. Likewise if the glow plugs were replaced with parts designed for a 12v system, they will not get fully hot and will cause issues trying to start.

As a general rule, difficulty starting is usually one of the following things:
- Glow plug issues (some not working, or a circuit problem, or wrong style/poor quality glow plugs)
- Injection and/or cam timing wrong
- Loss of fuel system prime (air getting into fuel pump and/or fuel leaking out and/or severe fuel supply restriction)
- Too slow starter cranking speed (battery/starter/connection issues)
- Base engine compression problem (ring/valve leakage or too thick headgasket)

Each of these potential causes presents symptoms in a slightly different way, though. They all make the engine hard to start but each has its own signature tell-tales from what is observed and when (hot/cold etc). The added details on what you are seeing the engine do will help us narrow it down.