Car wont start stopped working overnight

[abuzar1]

I have a 1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turbo Diesel. Car has 224k miles. It was running REALLY well before this. I got the car for next to nothing. I was running it on a 30% diesel 70% wvo blend. I know people hate WVO but I run WVO in my Mercedes Diesel as well so I tried it on this. Few days ago the car barely had any power, I changed out the fuel filter. I guess the wvo was taking out the old crud from the tank? I filter my wvo pretty well so it can't have been the wvo clogging it up.

Anyway, I was daily driving the car. I drove it home around 10pm couple nights ago and it wouldn't start up the following morning around 6AM. Car just stopped working. It went from driving GREAT to zilch. Wouldn't start up. Car cranks but won't start. Definitely fuel delivery problem. Now it was raining pretty hard so it's possible some rain might have gotten into my shed and my last batch of WVO might have gotten water contamination. SOO I was thinking that my Injector Pump had gone bad. However I cracked the fuel line that comes from the tank and goes into the fuel filter. When I crank the car no fuel comes out so I'm guessing the fuel pump has gone bad?

Now my question is, what should I do at this point? Any electrics that I should check? I've checked the fuses marked Fuel pump (fuse 1), In tank fuel pump (fuse 11), and Fuse 13 (it said in the manual it had something to do with the fuel pump). All these fuses are fine. Car has almost a full tank at the moment. If it really was a fuel quality issue then I don't think the car would have been running really well the night before.

EDIT: Ok after more reading it seems that the Diesel volvos have no fuel pumps. So it must be the IP that has gone bad. Is there a good place to pick up a used one?

[anders]

I would check to see if the fuel shut off solenoid has power, if so see if it clicks when you put power to it. I would also check to see if the glow plugs are getting power. I have never seen an injection pump just give up without prior notice.

[abuzar1]

Could you please tell me where that is?

[michaelovitch]

374http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4770/pivolvo1.jpg

the plug thing just above the 6 outlet
it's bolted in the iron part.

it's supposed to make "clic" when you power it with 12 v
it's grounded yet by the engine.

run a wire to it's electrical connection or make somebody turn the key for you.

[v8volvo]

Where are you located?

Running with a plugged fuel filter, or using WVO, or both, can lead to injection pump failure. However, in every case of IP mechanical failure that I have ever known, the car has quit on the road. If it was running fine when you parked it then would not start when you went to crank it the next morning, then it is almost guaranteed that the pump is OK and there is some more minor issue going on.

First thing -- what is the current fuel mix in the pump? If you did not flush adequately and the pump is full of gelled WVO, you will not be going anywhere until there is liquid fuel suitable for running a cold engine (ie regular diesel or biodiesel) in the injection pump and injectors.

Second -- when you turn the key to "on", does the glow plug light illuminate? If not, then the fuse that runs the glow relay and powers the IP is blown. For early 700 cars this is fuse #8 and on later cars it is #13. If the relevant fuse is blown, you need to find the short is that caused the fuse to blow and then replace the fuse. Once you have ensured power to the IP shutoff solenoid, check its operation by removing the wire from its terminal and touching it on and off of the terminal so that you can hear the solenoid "click" repeatedly. If applying and removing power does not result in clicking sounds, then you have a dead or stuck solenoid, but that is an unusual unusual problem and I doubt it is the cause of your issue.

Third -- does the engine crank normally, or does its rhythm sound different? Pop the front timing belt cover loose and check that the belt is intact and not excessively loose. (When was it last changed???) Check that the rear timing belt, near the firewall, is also in place and not missing any teeth. If either of these belts is broken, then the IP will not turn.

Fourth -- maybe the most likely -- has the fuel system lost prime? Look in the translucent fuel line running from the filter head up to the IP. Is it full of fuel? Is the fuel filter tight? Assuming all of the above checks out OK, connect a hand primer bulb in-line *before* the fuel filter (connect to the filter head inlet) and pump it. Watch the clear fuel line. Fuel flowing through? Keep the injector unions loose and have a helper crank the engine while you keep (gently) pumping the primer bulb. Getting fuel to the injectors now?? Close the unions and get the engine running, then find the reason why you lost prime.

These steps should lead you to the problem and hopefully get you going again. Keep us posted on what you find out.

George

[ngoma]

This last post by George needs to be a sticky.

[abuzar1]

1. I have not flushed out the pump... sorry for being so thickheaded but how would I go about doing that?
2. Glow plug lights are fine
3. It seems to crank normally and the belts seem fine
4. The line is full of fuel, filter is tight. I'll go buy a primer bulb and try that. Could I just connect an electric fuel pump and see if that does it? I have a small electric fuel pump on hand.

BTW in response to the earlier suggestion, the solenoid did make a clicking noise.

[abuzar1]

OK so I connected the electric fuel pump. I was wrong, there was NO fuel in the lines. When I connected the electric pump it started pumping fuel into the IP but with lots of air bubbles, idk what's up with that. I got the car started and disconnected the fuel pump and the car was running AS LONG AS I kept my foot on the gas. As soon as I let it idle it cut off. I know the filter is tight, I made sure of that.

[michaelovitch]

when you press the pedal your idle speed circuit is not working anymore.
when you release it it's working. (and your car die)

when you press the pedal your pump suck more fuel too.
at idle only a little.

that mean your problem is on your idle speed circuit or your fuel supplying.

seen the problem came suddenly i would say your pump is full of crap seen that you run on wasted oil.

like it was said flush your pump and use diesel fuel to start it.

you pump is maybe trying to suck like mad at idle to have fuel but can't because of a restriction.
if it works when you add fuel pressure and rev it up that mean you counter the restriction.

blow your fuel lines with compressed air (i did it with my mouth it's enough) in reverse direction.


change your filter.

[v8volvo]

Is your SVO system a dual tank or single-tank setup? When you first changed the fuel filter, did you prefill it with *clean* DIESEL or high-quality biodiesel fuel before installing? What brand filter are you using?

It sounds like you are blending WVO straight into your main tank without any fuel system heating. With an old OM61x-powered Mercedes in warm weather you can sometimes get away with that at the kinds of percentages you are talking about, but that is not feasible over the long term in anything with the VE rotary pump system the VW IDI family (including the D24T) uses. The MB has a separate lift pump and heavy duty inline injection pump that could probably pump river mud. The VE pumps instead use an integrated lift pump and compact rotary setup, and are not happy with very high viscosities, partially coagulated fuels, high inlet restriction, etc. If your IP is full of mostly WVO, the engine is not going to start and run properly until the fuel and engine are thoroughly warmed up by some external source, or the mixed fuel is flushed out of the system and replaced with clean, regular diesel or biodiesel. Most good WVO installations in VW/Volvo diesels involve a provision that allows the fuel system to be flushed with regular diesel every time before shutdown for this reason. That is what I was asking about when I referred to "adequately flushing." If you are not using such a system and are just blending in the tank at those high percentages without any fuel heating or flushing, that is going to be problematic and lead to issues like those you are having now, not to mention negatively affecting the engine's long term health.

Your issues in this particular case are probably a combination of wrong fuel mix, air in fuel, and fuel line restriction, all of which are likely connected and originally stemming from direct WVO blending. Excessive unheated WVO % in the system will not account for the loss of prime per se, but that may have happened when you changed the fuel filter, especially if you installed the filter without prefilling it, and would in that case be an effect rather than a cause of the motor's failure to start. At the same time, if system is severely restricted at any point (which itself is a likely cause of air ingress and loss of prime and can be caused by partially congealed cold WVO), it will also not be able to build any revs or power and will act as you describe. This could be a filter plugged with congealed WVO solids (even if it is a brand-new filter!), an obstruction at the fuel line inlet in the tank either by foreign matter or solidified WVO, etc, etc. Could happen particularly easily if you recently changed your WVO source, didn't adequately filter and prep the oil, made a mistake in your math when calculating the blend %, etc... Line or filter restriction will ultimately result in air ingress and loss of prime, in addition to heavy wear on the IP.

You have introduced a lot of variables into this situation so far, the thing to do now is to try to take a systematic approach to diagnosis and rule problems out one by one, starting with the basics. Don't assume any major components (especially the IP!!) are faulty until you have made sure all the external factors are in order. Your fuel system *must* meet the following three criteria at this point to be able to run your cold engine properly:
1) Injection pump, lines, and injectors full of clean, straight DIESEL or BIODIESEL fuel -- no WVO whatsoever. That means 0%! If the rest of your fuel system is full of WVO mix, you need to either get all of that out of there, or temporarily run the engine off an external jug to get it going.
2) No air in fuel system. Check fuel line connections, hose condition, filter installation, etc.
3) No blockages in fuel system: clean, high-quality fuel filter filled with appropriate fuel, lines clear and flowing freely, no obstructions at tank inlet.

Once you have these things established and the fuel system bled, see if it will start and run OK. If it does, you know where your problem is. My guess is that your IP is OK and your motor will run just as well as it did before once you deal with any restrictions, get some proper fuel to it, and get all the air out. :-)

[pgringo]

again...WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?!

[abuzar1]

I'm located in Orlando, Florida. Put in electric fuel pump got the car started again and drove it into my backyard. I then just used the electric fuel pump to drain out all WVO from tank. Just filled up with clean diesel. Car running again on 100% diesel. I let it run for a little bit, but then when I removed the electric pump, it started on its own, it ran for a while longer, but then it shutoff again.

Eh maybe I'll just leave the electric pump on permanently? I'm not messing with WVO anymore, I'm just gonna sell the car.

[v8volvo]

It sounds like you still have some kind of fuel system restriction, or the vane pump in your IP has failed or is still gummed up with WVO. You might give it some time to run for a while on the diesel and get good and warmed up, and running a dose of Diesel Purge might help too, anything to free up whatever the cold WVO may have stuck. Heat is definitely your friend here, so getting the motor and IP good and warm is a good goal to start with. Hopefully the IP isn't hosed/failed mechanically, but given that the problem arose suddenly as the car sat overnight, I am still thinking it is something less major than that. Usually when an IP suffers a serious failure you get some warning beforehand -- either the car dies while driving or you start to notice some symptoms like harder starting, loss of power, etc.

Now that it is running on diesel, with the electric pump installed, will it still only idle or does it run normally, make enough power to drive around, etc?

You can leave the electric pump on there, as long as it is a relatively low-pressure unit (no more than 5-10 psi max). If the electric pump is serving as a band-aid for a broken vane pump or a restricted fuel system, the car will still not run correctly that way, but it will run. However -- it is possible that the reason it started and then died after you removed the electric pump is that an airlock got introduced into the system when you had the fuel lines taken apart (particularly likely if there was still some restriction in the fuel line leading up to the electric pump that it had been sucking against). Did you try to get it running again after it quit?

Sounds like you had a good running car -- it can be that way again -- don't give up on it yet! :)

[abuzar1]

Tried starting with electric pump connected. It's barely putting out any fuel. It seems like fuel restriction somewhere like you guys said. I will install new fuel filter tomorrow see if that helps any. I made a video of what my current situation is like. PLEASEE check it out. I know it's a bit long (5 mins) but please check it out, I'm probably missing something and you guys could see what I'm doing wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR5PQdgcJ8c&feature=youtu.be

I shouldn't have messed with this. I have an OM617 300D and I run it on WVO so I thought why not this car as well. I saw the guys on Top Gear run straight WVO in the main tank on a Volvo 740 so I thought I'd try it :(

[v8volvo]

OK, first, a few tips to avoid making the situation worse: first, don't crank it endlessly as you were doing there. If you don't have fuel without air in it getting to the injection pump, it is not going to start, and cranking it continuously like that is only going to burn up your starter and battery. As you know, when it has a properly primed fuel system, it will start almost instantly. If it doesn't start right away, then the fuel supply problem needs to be fixed -- cranking it like that will not make it cure itself and will cause additional expense. Second, once you do get it to start, do not "give it gas" like you were describing. Racing the engine with the transmission in park or neutral will damage the trans due to the design of the ZF automatic, and it won't gain you anything. Once it starts, it should run just fine without needing to be revved above idle speed. Third, those of us trying to help you here recommended that you install your electric pump in line BEFORE the fuel filter. You have it installed AFTER the fuel filter, just ahead of the injection pump, which means any junk in that electric pump will be sent straight into the IP, potentially causing damage to it. If you want this car to get back to proper health, you need to not jeopardize the IP. That fuel pump MUST be placed ahead of the fuel filter!

The good news is that you have found your problem and it will be very simple to fix. The air in the line that that electric pump is pushing is the answer. There is air leaking into the fuel system either at or before the fuel filter, and there are only a couple of places where that can happen. Once you find and repair the air leak, the car will run as nicely as it did before and you will be a happy Volvo owner again. :)

Here is what I suggest you try next: take that electric pump out of there and repair the fuel line between the filter head and the IP, and install the electric pump instead in its proper place upstream of the fuel filter. Use some kind of transparent fuel line connected between the electric pump and the fuel filter so that you can see what the pump is pushing out. Energize the pump, crack the injector unions open, and see what happens. If the pump was pushing aerated fuel when positioned after the filter, but pumps clear air-free fuel when connected before the filter, then you know that your point of air ingress is at the fuel filter (and almost undoubtedly you will be led straight to it by fuel leaking *out* of the fuel filter under pressure at whatever point air was previously leaking in). If, however, the pump is still sucking air even when placed before the filter, then your air ingress point is elsewhere in the fuel line, again either due to a hose failure or a severe restriction in the line.

At that point, you need to start looking again at your fuel lines. On a Volvo this is easy because almost the entire line is metal, with only two rubber sections -- the part running from the metal line to the fuel filter housing in the engine bay, and the part running from the tank pickup to the beginning of the metal line underneath the rear of the car. Check the metal line for rusty spots or any sign of fluid leakage, and check both rubber hose sections for any damage or swelling or leakage. If there is no obvious issue, disconnect the line at both ends and blow through it in reverse direction with compressed air (or even your mouth). It should move air easily. Now connect the tank end of the line to an external can of diesel fuel, and run the return line in there too (disconnect it from the tank as well). Prime the fuel system as described here earlier, and the car should run correctly immediately.

If it does not run immediately, and still has air coming into the fuel line even after eliminating the fuel tank from the system and fully priming the system according to proper instructions with the use of an electric lift pump, that will mean that there is still a problem in the fuel line that you have not found yet. If it does run correctly at that point, as I suspect it will, then your issue is within the fuel tank, probably caused by a clogged fuel pickup. At that point all you need to do is disconnect the fuel filler hose and remaining tank lines, drop the tank, clean it, and reinstall. The car will be as good as new.

This is not a serious problem and finding and fixing it won't be that hard! Let us know what you find.

George