I need help please ! VIDEO to diagnosis inside

[michaelovitch]

Hi !:)

I need help !

I've started for the first time my engine (a d24 rebuilt by a engines machine shop owner (a machinist?) and it run like crap !

-It is difficult to start
-it doesn't want to take rpm
-it's smoking like Fidel Castro
-it's shaking like a junky on rehab

It looks like it runs on 3 cylinders....:mad:

The machinist said me it was not able to take rpm too yet.(like me now)

After i bought it, i did ALL the things that are supposed to be made to maintain it except the gaskests (wich are new) like timing belts injection pump setting, water pump etc....
I have changed the injection pump because of what he said me about the fact it didn't take rpm, thinking it was because of his "pump rebuild" work.

I've used the special tools to work on the timing belt and the pump.

I THINK i have te pulley of the injection pump turned once or twoo between the dismantling and the remounting.that could explain all the smoke caused by the three others not burning fuel and puking out in the exhaust no ?

Could it be that or the flywheel not bolted exacltly where it should ?

i mean displaced of one hole (but in this case i should have twisted all the valves or even felt the blockage when i moved it by hand first no ? (i don't think but huh i have not a lot of experience:confused:

THE VIDEO OF THIS: (and HOW I FEEL RIDICULOUS AND STUPID.... I'm supposed to know what i'm doing....:o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgSKn1PBDg

[piper109]

I dont think you can put the flywheel on wrongly as the hole pattern does not permit a mistake. However, I do not see a transmission so how did you get the timing mark for TDC?
I am presently in Mauritania so I cannot download your video. It would take all night.
It sounds as if the injector timing is too late or the injector pump is not yet completely filled with fuel.

Are you sure you have the camshaft timed correctly? Do you have all the valve clearances correct? Do you have good compression on all 6 cylinders when you turn the engine with a wrench?
The crankshaft keyway on the front of the engine should be vertical at TDC.
Are you using the cold start lever in the correct position?
Have you tried keeping power on the glow plugs after engine starts?
You should just go back and double check all the timing settings for both belts and make sure your fuel supply is reliable and it cannot suck air and your glow plugs work for at least 10 seconds before trying to start.

Steve

[michaelovitch]

Thanks for your advices and your answer.

About your questions :


The transmission is bolted on the block and i used it to install all the parts wich need it.

I have used the special tools for the timing belt and did it following the manual specs : it should be ok (i will check again, again, again)

The valves clearances should be ok : the engine was rebuilt by a professionnal for his own brother (it's not a reason i know) i will check it

I've seen the frontal keyway pointing the sky during the tming belt installation while at TDC i will check it again

The cold start device is connected and pulling hard on the cable of the pump.

I've used glowplugs 10s before each of the several starts i did on it ,not during because it can stay a bit on idle alone.
it starts but not easily and smoke a lot and sounds like it is choking itself (like a too rich mixture on a gas engine)
It doesn't rev up even if "full fuel"

The all 6 pistons are new and the cylinders bored i can hear suctions when i turn it by hand and it blow air by the exhaust when i crank it with the electric starter.





The engine ran 11 years ago during around 1 hour or so with the same symptoms.

Knowing that when i bought it, i've done, all the belts, tensionner, water pump, and installed a different injection pump (wich worked normally on an other engine).


Thanks again.

[v8volvo]

You are right, it does not sound too healthy.

When you set the injection timing, did you first disconnect the cold start advance? If you set the timing using the dial indicator but leave the CS connected and pulling on the lever, then your actual static injection timing setting will be incorrect (retarded by about .25-.30 mm), and the engine will run poorly with some of the symptoms you are seeing.

In your situation, you cannot assume anything -- it would be a good idea to verify valve clearances, etc for yourself. Start by pulling the valve cover and checking valve clearances and cam timing. Adjust both if necessary. Also loosen your timing belt -- it is too tight! I can hear it howling in your video. That is not the cause of your running problems, but it could cause other problems. Reduce the tension a bit . On a cold engine, the belt should have some visible slack. Should not be taut.

On a D24T a while back, I had some strange starting and running issues similar to yours that were traced to a faulty injector that was allowing exhaust to get pushed into it, causing the injection pump to fill up with air. If you are doubly sure that all adjustments of timing, valves, etc are correct, then your next step will be to take the injectors out and have them tested by a reputable diesel injection shop. Plan on a compression test while they are out.

You'll get it figured out!

[michaelovitch]

You are right, it does not sound too healthy.

When you set the injection timing, did you first disconnect the cold start advance? If you set the timing using the dial indicator but leave the CS connected and pulling on the lever, then your actual static injection timing setting will be incorrect (retarded by about .25-.30 mm), and the engine will run poorly with some of the symptoms you are seeing.

In your situation, you cannot assume anything -- it would be a good idea to verify valve clearances, etc for yourself. Start by pulling the valve cover and checking valve clearances and cam timing. Adjust both if necessary. Also loosen your timing belt -- it is too tight! I can hear it howling in your video. That is not the cause of your running problems, but it could cause other problems. Reduce the tension a bit . On a cold engine, the belt should have some visible slack. Should not be taut.

On a D24T a while back, I had some strange starting and running issues similar to yours that were traced to a faulty injector that was allowing exhaust to get pushed into it, causing the injection pump to fill up with air. If you are doubly sure that all adjustments of timing, valves, etc are correct, then your next step will be to take the injectors out and have them tested by a reputable diesel injection shop. Plan on a compression test while they are out.

You'll get it figured out!


Thanks for your answer.

I've disconnected the cold start device when i 've set the injection pump.
It was sure loose.

The noise that you can hear is the back plate of the timing belt wich was rubed by the camshaft pulley, i bent it back a bit during the video.
It stopped the noise.
I was careful not to tighten it up.
The belt can make a 1/4 of rotation quite easily on it's own on it's longer part.

You're right about the valves clearances, i cant trust a pro even if it is one:mad:
Seen i do all the maintenance on my own engine i must know where i am with it.


Now i have to check all that :confused:


Very stange your problem with the injector, i never saw that !
I will remember that.

[michaelovitch]

Hi !

So i've checked :

the valves clearances : all is in the specs (tight side however, but it was cold ,10°C or 50 F ,when i measured the gaps)
the timing belt is in the position it should
the pump setting : :( 0.73 before TDC while i should have 0.80 for my naturally aspirated engine.

I'm a bit astonished that setting leads to a so bad running condition :eek:

Could it be the only problem ?


I will reset the pump to the specs and will try to start it again....

:rolleyes:

[piper109]

Try advancing the timing to .9. You can always change it again later.

Steve

[michaelovitch]

Is it good for a NA engine ?

it's not too much ?

[piper109]

Its only too much if it rattles too much. My guess is that start up will be smoke free and power will be good.
I think timing values are conservative, to detune the engine for poor quality fuel.
Try it and see. Changing the timing only takes minuted if you turn the rear timing belt sprocket. Do not twist the IP

Steve

[michaelovitch]

Ok.
Thanks.

i will try this setting for sure.:)


I think i found the problem : i have removed all the injectors because it sounded like it was choking itself after to have checked again all the stuff i did yet : belts TDC etc....

I found 2 MOFO STUCK INJECTORS : the needle is stuck in the nose for 2 of them...

i'm cleaning them right now and i try to unstuck the two bastards without fubar them :mad:

If you have any advice to do it properly i 'll take it ! :D

[piper109]

Dis donc, ou as tu appris un Anglais si elegant LOL:D

[michaelovitch]

Dis donc, ou as tu appris un Anglais si elegant LOL:D

Not all at school for sure :cool:

Internet , Youtube (a lot of vids on the automotive world in English spoken by people with their own prononciation you have to be careful if you want understand so you learn quicker) a lot of automotive forums like this one and my brother and I searching for the most stupid things we could say.
Maybe some porn too but it's quite repetitive lol (i'm kidding:p)

Et Toi où as tu appris le Français ?



I just unstuck the needles ! YEAH ! i've heated up a bit and cooled down quickly in a glass of water 3 times and pulled the needle with a plier

BAM ! unstuck ! :D

Tomorrow i will try to crank her up !

I cross all my 20 fingers :)

[v8volvo]

I just unstuck the needles ! YEAH ! i've heated up a bit and cooled down quickly in a glass of water 3 times and pulled the needle with a plier

BAM ! unstuck ! :D

Tomorrow i will try to crank her up !

I cross all my 20 fingers :)

Great!

By needles I assume you are talking about the injector nozzles? You do not want to get those anywhere near water, any rust in them will really screw the pooch (there's another great English phrase to know ;) ). There are tools available to clean them, but if they are not moving freely and sticking, they really should be replaced. New nozzles are only a few bucks each... but maybe you are meaning something different by needles.

Either way, yes, a sticking injector will certainly cause the issues you were seeing. The hard starting and "choking"/inability to rev up is a good sign of the injection pump getting air blasted into it somehow. This is similar to what I had happen on one of mine a while ago. A good test for this that I discovered then, and should have thought to suggest to you now had I remembered it sooner, is to crack the fuel fittings at the injectors open one by one with the engine running. If you find any that seem to push a bunch of foam and bubbles out all the time when running, then you have identified a stuck injector that is filling up with engine compression/exhaust, and those will cause serious runnability problems.

Advancing timing is a good idea too; do that and get the injectors sorted and it should run smooth and clean. Good luck!

[michaelovitch]

Great!

By needles I assume you are talking about the injector nozzles? You do not want to get those anywhere near water, any rust in them will really screw the pooch (there's another great English phrase to know ;) ). There are tools available to clean them, but if they are not moving freely and sticking, they really should be replaced. New nozzles are only a few bucks each... but maybe you are meaning something different by needles.

Either way, yes, a sticking injector will certainly cause the issues you were seeing. The hard starting and "choking"/inability to rev up is a good sign of the injection pump getting air blasted into it somehow. This is similar to what I had happen on one of mine a while ago. A good test for this that I discovered then, and should have thought to suggest to you now had I remembered it sooner, is to crack the fuel fittings at the injectors open one by one with the engine running. If you find any that seem to push a bunch of foam and bubbles out all the time when running, then you have identified a stuck injector that is filling up with engine compression/exhaust, and those will cause serious runnability problems.

Advancing timing is a good idea too; do that and get the injectors sorted and it should run smooth and clean. Good luck!


Yeah , the needle in the nozzle was damn stuck ! i found that you call it "needle valve" here it's called "pointeau" .

i cleaned them with water :eek: and powerful degreaser then rubing alcohol and i washed them with very fine oil (penetrating oil look a like)
i've soaked/ oiled them when i reassembled.
i've brushed them once complete and they are shiny :cool:
Here it's 22 euros a set of needle nozzle each.
that's make about 150 euros for six with shipping
cheaper where you live ?


I knew for the "crack loose" test but i thought i found the problem and cleaned them right after.
i didn't think to prove the problem by testing.:o

For the test the timing is at 0.85 if i'm right.
i will check the unload pressure of the injectors and the pattern first and then try to advance the timing to 0.90.

The engine ran the time of the vid below ,not more. and still smokes it needs more time to run to see where i have to tune it.:D

[michaelovitch]

the vids now

the problem :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lh1IdMQfeQ


once solved :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPCxcWfBIdQ



here a proof of my great intelligence :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btFulLjBkkw



So thank you at all of you for your help, it allowed me to think and rethink an other way that mine.
that's the way to go further.:)

of course it's not over there are more mods to come.

[v8volvo]

Hah! Sounds fantastic now! Glad you got it all figured out. A couple stuck injectors and retarded timing can certainly make a difference. I like your method of shutting the engine off! I've done that with a piece of wood, but never with my bare hand...

Holding the glowplugs on until after the engine starts would help it start more easily, and using a little throttle and timing advance would help too..... but that would require more than 2 hands, and a guy only has so many. ;-)

Funny mistake in your last video. You can even hear it start to crank faster since the compression is so low with the intake blocked like that. Same thing happens to TDI's when the anti-shudder valve gets jammed with carbon and sticks shut... they try to crank with a closed throttle, and it sounds like they have a broken timing belt because they spin over with no compression! Many an intermittent TDI no-start is from just that exact same effect. Glad you figured out what you forgot to do before you got too mad at it!

I worked on one guy's TDI Beetle once who had just spent $5000 replacing his automatic transmission because he thought it was slipping and the car couldn't climb hills... I looked at it and didn't get halfway down the block before I knew the throttle valve was the problem. Sure enough it was stuck halfway shut, restricting engine power, engine couldn't rev above 2000 RPM, and so he would hammer the throttle pedal, trans would downshift, felt like slipping to him I guess.... unstuck the valve and it worked perfectly. He must have felt pretty dumb spending all that money rebuilding a perfectly good trans when a 5-minute repair using no parts was all it needed...

[michaelovitch]

Yeah i felt really stupid and ashamed when i saw i forgot to unlug the intake...

I didn't realized the problem and thought it was a new battery i tried for the first time wich gave a so fast crancking rotation.

but no.:o

then i checked my emergency intake plug and saw it was on the intake.


Like you i've readen the story of a guy who spent several thousand euros trying to repair an exhaust particulate filter system,computer and refilled the oxyd ceria because each time he shot off the car and came back later the whole car system was resetting itself to zero and restarted the particulate filter regeneration cycle again and again and again.....

his problem was just a weak battery.
not enough to cause engine starting problems but just weak enough in voltage to stop the computers system at each shut off :confused:

[pgringo]

what is that you are using as the end cap for your intake, and where may i order one?

[michaelovitch]

what is that you are using as the end cap for your intake, and where may i order one?


the cap on the intake ?

it's a cap that you have on the firewall side of the intake on all d24.

i've just a spare one that i used as an emergency plug in case of runaway:D

[pgringo]

oops. sorry to bother you.

i have never unpacked my d24 intake i bought from someone & i thought that was some special silicone cap you sourced.

i finally dug out my d24 parts i bought over a year ago and what do you know...i've got one of those caps on the back of my d24 intake. silly me.

[michaelovitch]

no problem.

it's just that i forgot to remove it during the starting attempt so you see it on the intake.
i was so focused on the starting that i forgot to remove it.