Anyone run Bio or Veg oil on here?

[ian2000t]

Think I've heard a few mention running Bio, but not heard of anyone using Veg oil - SVO or WVO?

[piper109]

Yes, I have run WVO.

I installed a Greasecar kit with the tank in the spare wheel well of the 85 wagon. It worked very well and you could not tell when you were running on veg unless you went round the back and sniffed. Nothing was felt switching over either way. I found it hard to get the oil up to 160 F though and ran at 140 most of the time.

I have not used it recently as that particular car is not insured at present and the oil is hard to get.

I also have a 2003 Golf tdi converted. Same results, you cant tell whether or not its on veg without sniffing the exhaust.

Steve

[anders]

I personally would never run WVO in a diesel again. When I sold my 240 years ago the guy that bought it ran WVO, I sold the car with 170,xxx miles with some blow by but not a huge amount. I found it on craigslist and bought it back with 195,xxx miles on it. It was only running on 5 cylinders at that time. I pulled the engine and inspected it. Everything in the crankcase looks like it was rubber coated. It killed the bearings and clogged the rings.. Change the oil often, if you run the stuff.

[piper109]

I personally would never run WVO in a diesel again. When I sold my 240 years ago the guy that bought it ran WVO, I sold the car with 170,xxx miles with some blow by but not a huge amount. I found it on craigslist and bought it back with 195,xxx miles on it. It was only running on 5 cylinders at that time. I pulled the engine and inspected it. Everything in the crankcase looks like it was rubber coated. It killed the bearings and clogged the rings.. Change the oil often, if you run the stuff.

That is certainly good advice. The veg that makes it down into the crankcase does some well documented nasty things and I would recommend every 3000 miles max and make sure the veg oil is good and hot before turning it on.

I know someone who filters his crankcase oils, used transmission fluid etc. to 1-5 microns (synthetic, dino, no matter) the same way as he filters his WVO and then burns it in his engine a bit at a time. That way it does double duty. Apparently no noticeable smoke.

Steve

[ian2000t]

Definitely a good point about the veg in the crankcase - will be changing oil frequently.

The reason i'm asking is i've Ben testing mine to see what it can handle. I've just been using svo (new veg oil from supermarket our cash and carry). I've actually found that it runs fine with even 90% svo and 10% misfuel (petrol/diesel mix). Starting is a little cranky at 3 degrees ambient temp but that is just because my cold start unit had been taken of when it packed up.

What my issue is - from cold it is extremely rattly. Even with just 20% svo it rattles terrible between 1000-2000 rpm. Of you keep it in a low gear at 2500 rpm it's do much quieter - just like ruining straight pump diesel. Had anyone else experienced this? Adding cold start advance (manually) didn't make any difference to rattles.

[Palmer]

As far as my knowledge goes they can run 100% WVO fine as long as it is filtered down correctly and the water content removed. Howewer, you need to use a tank heater. WVO will solidify in winter and the tank needs to be heated in order to get it thin enough for the pump to pick it up.

They tend to be a rattly engine anyway, does it cease once warmed??

[piper109]

I think you are being very brave to run cold veg oil through your injector pump etc. Its viscosity is much higher than regular diesel fuel and the pump will be working much harder to pump that stuff and its an expensive item to repair or replace. Generally it is considered OK to heat the veg oil to about 160F so that its viscosity is then very similar to cold diesel fuel and the pump does not have to work any harder.
This is what you do with a two tank system which is a common way to use WVO oil.

If the engine is rattly, it would seem to indicate that the combustion process is off, ie the timing is wrong for the fuel.

Its my experience that with everything at the right temperature, the engine running on veg oil is smoother and quieter than running regular diesel oil.

Steve

[ian2000t]

I know what you are saying about the cold veg oil - that is why I usually run 50/50 with diesel, which brings it's viscosity much closer to that of diesel. Apparently running 80/20 or 85/15 with petrol is best, as the petrol lowers the viscosity much better than diesel. I'm using misfuel at the moment which is half diesel, half petrol as it's free.

My plan long term is to either twin tank, or just to add a heat exchanger to heat the veg oil before it gets to the pump. I am also going to add a lift pump so the IP isn't working add hard to suck it from the tank.

That was also my thought that timing was not correct, but veg oil Burns slower than diesel, so normally you have to advance the timing. But rattles and diesel knock are symptoms of too much advance. Also this is only when cold. Past 1/3 temp it's fine.

I mentioned this rattling on the veg forum but was shot down for having the Monark nozzles which are not correct for this engine.

[piper109]

How do you know its half and half?

If you get a lot of gasoline/petrol in your diesel, it will certainly rattle!

Steve

[Palmer]

Also forgot to mention that im lead to believe you will need new pump seals that the wvo cant eat away at :)

[ian2000t]

Well, I can't be sure it is half petrol, half diesel. But that's why i'm only mixing misfuel in at 10-15% max. Most guys on the veg forum use 10-15% petrol for thinning.

This rattle happens for all of the tried blends:

50/50 svo/diesel
90/10 svo/misfuel
20/80 svo/misfuel

Yeh, these engines are rattly anyway when cold and on diesel it clatters a bit but no where near as much as with any veg in.

Do you think the Monark 273 nozzles could be to blame?

[piper109]

Cant comment on the nozzles as I have no experience or knowledge of them personally. Generally if the engine is rattly its because the timing is set too advanced. It would not be a bad idea to check that. A shade less than 1 mm before TDC seems to work best, around .95 though the book says less than that.
Most engines will rattle more when they are cold.
I have heard that starting up on veg oil causes coking of the rings which then become gummed up and stuck in their grooves.

Steve

[ian2000t]

Perhaps these engines just don't like veg when cold then - not like the XUD engines.

Timing set spot on 0.96mm - checked out the other day. If anything that's to far retarded - many on here advance it somewhat with the Monark nozzles, and also common practice to advance it when running veg due to slower burn.

[bryancald]

I've been running B99 in my N/A 240 and have had to reseal the pump and swap the rubber fuel lines to Viton. I eventually plan to run WVO using a two tank system with auto switching, but this is $1900 down the road. My engine seems to run fine on bio. I've run around 200 gallons through it so far. It will tear through regular rubber pretty fast. When my IP started leaking, it quickly ate up the IP belt. I purchase my bio from a local refinery for about $3.85 a gallon.

My engine has been smoking more since I messed with the CSV during reseal. I thought I had it finally set it properly after some adjustments, but now I think it's the main culprit. (It didn't smoke too bad prior to the reseal).

[ian2000t]

Yeh, mine has sprung a few leaks now. Trying to find a pump to reseal, but they're like rocking horse poo round here.

Does yours rattle lots (more than diesel) on veg/bio from cold start - less than 10 degrees C.

[bryancald]

Not really, to be honest with you, I don't notice much of a difference but the smell.
I also like fueling up at home.

[michaelovitch]

Also forgot to mention that im lead to believe you will need new pump seals that the wvo cant eat away at :)

True !

it will eat them in few days or weeks !

Viscosity is the problem.
With a ve pump you can't really run a lot of vo in winter. max 20%

You need to heat it up a lot and you need to adjust your injectors at more than they should 130 bars stock and way more following the mix oil/diesel.
re adjust the pump setting too because you spray later.

Here the people do it with ve pump because they can handle more than the rotodiesel for example but they do not go over 20 or max 30 % in winter with risks of breakage if the mix is not heated up enough.

There are heat exchanger added stock fuel filters heaters modified etc....to run vo
look here

http://www.oliomobile.org/

and here

http://www.forum4x4.org/threads/89419-CHAUFFAGE-DU-FILTRE-A-GAZOIL/page5

[ian2000t]

Yes, heat exchanger very good idea - I am planning on fitting one of these.

Remember though when you say 20/30% Max, you are talking about mixing with diesel. Mixing with petrol is far more efficient to bring the viscosity down. Also the Bosch ve pump is THE best pump for veg. Have a look on vegetable oil diesel forum - some on there still run their XUD pug engines on nearly 100%through winter and have done for years

[michaelovitch]

Yes, mixing with diesel.
Petrol is not appropriate for a diesel engine in my opinion.
The quality of the combustion will drop.
it's the exact same thing that if you mix petrol in diesel fuel in stock conditions
To have max benefits of the VO (its a nonsense to dilute petrol that you bought, to run on "free" fuel while you are obliged yet to buy some diesel fuel for start the car ) i suggest you to heat it up till you have the same viscosity as diesel fuel.
In winter you will can start on diesel and once hot enough switch on VO.(VO that you must heat up in any case)
The straight starts on VO are possible but really risky if you use an electric heater in the very proximity of the pump and in fuel filter.
otherwise you will break the pump.

[ian2000t]

Mixing petrol with veg oil is not false economy. To thin veg oil you can heat or mix with petrol. Yes, combustion is slightly wise with petrol but using a cetane enhancer like veggiboost restores the power to that of standard diesel.

Also, it is cheaper to use petrol because thinking with diesel would take say 50% diesel or 15% petrol - which is cheapest? Petrol is only harmful to a diesel pump because it is too thin to lubricate it. Mixed with veg oil it becomes the same thickness as diesel.

I kno theory says don't do it, but please have a read on the forum - practice shows it works very well, even in winter!

[ian2000t]

Mixing petrol with veg oil is not false economy. To thin veg oil you can heat or mix with petrol. Yes, combustion is slightly wise with petrol but using a cetane enhancer like veggiboost restores the power to that of standard diesel.

Also, it is cheaper to use petrol because thinking with diesel would take say 50% diesel or 15% petrol - which is cheapest? Petrol is only harmful to a diesel pump because it is too thin to lubricate it. Mixed with veg oil it becomes the same thickness as diesel.

I kno theory says don't do it, but please have a read on the forum - practice shows it works very well, even in winter!

[piper109]

With a mix like that it must get right hairy trying to work out how much excise tax to pay on the veg...wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Steve

[ian2000t]

There is no excise to pay.

In UK we have an "allowance" of 2500ltrs per year of vegetable oils that you can use as a fuel without paying any tax. Mixing with a solvent is illegal, unless fuel duty has been paid on it - therefore if you mix with petrol or pump diesel that is perfectly legal because you have paid fuel duty on it. I promise there is nothing illegal about what I am doing, I have read up on this well and can post the HMRC documents if you really want.

[piper109]

Well I hope you know I was pulling your leg. I'm from the UK and if there is a way you could pass under the nose of "Big Brother" I would secretly approve :-)

I have heard of people buying their veg at Tesco's and using it as a fuel and being in trouble for it.

Here in the US there are no taxes on veg fuels and in fact there are tax incentives for biodiesel and alcohol fuel use.

There are several forums for veg use and they all recommend heating the oil before running through the injection system, especially on a cold engine.
Of course there are many too that believe that their own personal concoction is best.
Personally I use 100% veg oil in heated form, with a 2 tank system, starting and stopping on normal fossil diesel.

Steve, originally from N22

[ian2000t]

Sorry mate didn't realise you were joking with me...hard to tell on a forum - normally people who don't understand assume it's illegal and wrong without checking!

I understand what you mean about heating it, I am going to fit a heat exchanger but that won't help cold starts. I know what you mean about people saying they know best but haven't really tested it thoroughly enough to know for real. There are guys on the forum who run 90/10 veg/petrol all year and many have covered 50k+ miles with no problems.

I have heard about people getting in trouble but usually just unknowing cops getting involved. Or allowance had only been in place for a few years...before that you had to pay duty on every ltr of veg used.

[piper109]

I guess you must be quite young then to not be familiar with the Monty Python skit, otherwise you would have cottoned on immediately. Ask an older person about nudge, nudge etc. LOL

Keep up the good work,
Steve

[ian2000t]

True, I'm 26 so Monty Python was around before my time - but I do know the skit you mean!

Just an update - from an empty tank I tried the mix of nearly 10ltrs filtered/dewatered wvo; just over a ltr petrol; and a couple of cap fulls of "veggi-boost".

Car starts early mornings (2-3 deg C) with frost on the windscreen perfectly fine - no hunting/spluttering like it was on 50/50 SVO/Diesel. Also, it's so much more responsive than on standard pump diesel, I couldn't believe it last night. Seems more responsive hot and cold, and when it's warmed up seems to have much more power and turbo spools better aswell. Crazy!