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View Full Version : Car won't start...AGAIN!


EvoStevo
09-01-2009, 12:33 PM
So I pull into the parking garage at my office and it's pretty packed. I'm looking for a spot and I see one so I start pulling into it. As I'm pulling in, I see another car pulling out of a spot that's closer to the elevator. I throw it in reverse, start to back out and the car stalls. I stalled it yesterday too (thought I was in 1st gear but was actually in 3rd...I had a long day), but was able to get it started again. Today however, it just kept cranking and wouldn't fire up. I had my foot mashed on the accelerator like normal and would let it turn over for 10-15 seconds each time. I finally had to push it into the spot as best as I could and almost hit the concrete pillar in front of me. It's now parked crooked as hell and I'm worried it's going to get towed by the parking nazis. My office friends aren't here today, so I have no one I feel comfortable asking to help push the car. /end rant

So anyway, what was strange to me was that the glow plug light wouldn't come on. I had only driven for about ten minutes on the highway, so maybe the engine wasn't warm enough to start without glow plugs? I have some 40-wt. oil and the tools necessary to take out the glow plugs, so hopefully with some oil in the cylinders, and assuming the glow plugs work later, I can get it to start. Anyone have other suggestions?

v8volvo
09-01-2009, 12:56 PM
If you unplug the wire from the temp sender on the back of the cylinder head (right below the sprocket that drives the rear timing belt for the injection pump), it will trick the glow system into thinking the engine is dead cold, and the glow plugs will come on. It sounds like your compression is low enough that it needs the glow in order to start, even when warm. Common situation with worn-out diesels.

You might eventually want to temporarily install a manual glow system (using a Ford starter relay and a pushbutton), so that the glow plugs can be turned on whenever you want them. That would help you out if this situation arose again. In the meantime, just applying power to the plugs should be enough to get you going again -- just wait a couple hours till its cool enough to light the plugs and start, or use the trick mentioned above. Much easier than trying to put oil in the cylinders, etc, and less risky... you can bend rods and break pistons and rings if you overdo it with the oil.

EvoStevo
09-01-2009, 01:16 PM
If you unplug the wire from the temp sender on the back of the cylinder head (right below the sprocket that drives the rear timing belt for the injection pump), it will trick the glow system into thinking the engine is dead cold, and the glow plugs will come on. It sounds like your compression is low enough that it needs the glow in order to start, even when warm. Common situation with worn-out diesels.

You might eventually want to temporarily install a manual glow system (using a Ford starter relay and a pushbutton), so that the glow plugs can be turned on whenever you want them. That would help you out if this situation arose again. In the meantime, just applying power to the plugs should be enough to get you going again -- just wait a couple hours till its cool enough to light the plugs and start, or use the trick mentioned above. Much easier than trying to put oil in the cylinders, etc, and less risky... you can bend rods and break pistons and rings if you overdo it with the oil.

You have a point. I have absolutely no idea how much oil is just enough to get the rings to seal. Knowing me, I probably would overdo it. Thanks for the heads up! I guess I'll just wait for the engine to cool down then.

Jason
09-01-2009, 04:02 PM
You may also think about keeping the throttle down around less than half. Putting all the way to the floor dumps in alot of fuel and can make it hard to start. It can get sort of flooded in a way.

Did you ever try out that BG compression restore stuff?

Jason

EvoStevo
09-01-2009, 04:29 PM
You may also think about keeping the throttle down around less than half. Putting all the way to the floor dumps in alot of fuel and can make it hard to start. It can get sort of flooded in a way.

Did you ever try out that BG compression restore stuff?

Jason

I couldn't find anyone willing to sell BG 109 to me (it's apparently not available to the general public?) so I was going to take my car to an oil change place that carried it and get their "deluxe oil service" when my oil was due.

So I just got back from the car. Still won't start. I let the glow plugs cycle through several times before cranking and still got nothing. I undid the front three glow plugs and put some oil in (about 1/8 the length of a drinking straw, to play it safe). It sounded like it was trying to start, but it gave up after a few seconds.

Not sure what I'm going to do. I was able to round up a couple guys to help put the car straight in the parking space, but I'll likely need to leave it over night (the garage attendants leave in 30 minutes, so I don't think AAA will be able to get here in time). I'll try starting it again with the pedal at less than half throttle.

Jason
09-01-2009, 04:38 PM
If you want to do it yourself, we have the 109 at our shop and will sell it to you... I don't understand what the deal is, unless you had some glow plugs go bad again. Didn't you just replace a few of them?

Jason

EvoStevo
09-01-2009, 06:20 PM
Yes. All of them, actually. Could there be something that's prematurely killing the plugs? I'd test them, but my multimeter is broken. I need to invest in a good quality one.

I'd be interested in purchasing some from BG 109 from you. I'd like to try it on both of my cars, so how much for two cans?

v8volvo
09-02-2009, 12:36 AM
Yep, if your glow plug relay is sticking on, it can burn the plugs out quickly.... does happen sometimes. Another reason to switch to a manually-controlled system where you are the only one deciding if power gets to the plugs or not. It sounds like you are back to square one on this -- you'll have to go through all the steps again and determine if power is getting to the plugs, if the plugs are good, if the timing is right, etc...

However, I wonder if something else is going on. Was the car running fine right before it stalled? Has it had problems starting up when warm in the past? Seems odd it wouldn't start back up after running OK, and then wouldn't start cold either, all of a sudden. Makes me wonder if you had a belt slip again or another problem of that sort. I also find my diesels almost impossible to stall unless I am trying to do it intentionally. If you managed to accidentally stall yours twice, it makes me think it wasn't running quite right either. I'm also still somewhat suspicious of the fact that yours started and ran fine when you got it, then in the space of just a few weeks suddenly seemed to lose compression and begin having starting trouble.

When the diesel shop worked on your car, what did they set the timing to? Should have been somewhere between .85-.95. If it's below that range, it will be tough to start and have reduced torque, esp at low engine speeds.

Jason
09-02-2009, 09:17 AM
The 109 is 29.95 a bottle. Not the cheapest stuff out there but its good. As George said though, it really sounds like there may be other problems going on with the start/no start all of a sudden thing. As I said before, compression doesn't disapear over night. Either way, if you want to order a couple bottles, call the shop at 314-638-7700. You can ask for me if you want, I don't normally answer the phone.

Jason

EvoStevo
09-02-2009, 11:17 AM
My boss brought his multimeter so I'll test the plugs and the relay before I resort to calling the tow truck. I will also try getting oil into the cylinders through the intake manifold (just a little though, so I don't risk hydrolocking it).

The car doesn't seem to care one way or the other if it's hot or cold when it comes to starting. It seems to act the same either way. When it's warm, it might fire up a little quicker but not by much. The car seemed to be running like normal both times I stalled it. So I'm not sure whether or not it stalled because something was wrong with it or I goofed up my footwork on the clutch and throttle. Usually it's pretty hard for me to stall the car. The only times I can recall doing it is when I'm reversing and I accidentally leave the AC on. I'm not sure what the shop set the timing to. I'll call and see if they remember.

m-reg
09-03-2009, 02:39 PM
did you check the kill switch? and supply, I had one where the kill switch wire rubbed on a bracket and would cut the fuel when the motor moved like when pulling away good luck. oh yeh if glow relay was stuck on youd have dead battery in no time they take a lot of juice!

MRDART
09-05-2009, 10:08 PM
did you check the kill switch? and supply, I had one where the kill switch wire rubbed on a bracket and would cut the fuel when the motor moved like when pulling away good luck. oh yeh if glow relay was stuck on youd have dead battery in no time they take a lot of juice!

Totally agree!!
check for electrical power on the fuel shutoff solenoid, And the glowplug relay if it is sticking the glow plugs takes about 50-60 amps if I remember correctly, so it would have drained your battery.
If you can get hold of a clamp type ampmeter that is an easy way of checking if the glow plugs are working,just cllamp it around the glow plug wire and se if it takes around 50-60 amps when you hit the glow pos on the ignition key.

Glow plugs are self regulating in a way when they warm up the resistance increases. Audi/vw use this system to give additional heating to the cooling circuit in cold wheather. It has a unit with 3 glowplugs that the coolant flows through...

m-reg
09-06-2009, 12:47 AM
I supose its all going over diesel basics really like does the kill switch click on an off with ignition switch or if you flash the wire on it with ign on. the other one is are you getting fuel up to injectors like pump sucking air in somewhere but you probly done all that already

EvoStevo
09-06-2009, 01:33 PM
I actually haven't done anything with it yet. The multimeter that my boss brought to work this past week turned out to be dead, so I still haven't ruled out glow plugs. Thanks for all your suggestions, guys. I'll definitely investigate the fuel kill switch and the other possibilities soon.

EvoStevo
04-05-2010, 03:00 PM
So I finally got a chance to take a look at the car (nearly seven months later). I had a death in the family among other things going on in life that really just sucked the motivation out of me. Anyway, here's a report on what I found. I poked around under the hood and saw that the wire going to the fuel cutoff solenoid was barely hanging on. The spade connector just slips on and off with no effort at all, so I thought maybe the sudden jerk of stalling the car knocked it off. I push it back on and try starting it. Sure enough the battery is dead, so I pull the one out of my BMW (same size and cranking amps) and put it in. Try starting it again and still nothing. Doesn't even sound like it's trying to start. I put a test light on the fuel cutoff solenoid and see that it's getting voltage. I then loosen the nut on top of the injector of cylinder one. Tried turning it over and saw fuel dripping/squirting from the line. I then attempted to test the glow plugs. I put a test light on the bus bar and turned the key to the 'on' position. The plugs got power and the relay clicked off after a few seconds. I used my multimeter to try and test the glow plugs individually. I think I did it right, but am not totally sure. Five of them seemed to be within range, but I didn't remove the bus bars (not sure if that matters). The one closest to the firewall I couldn't reach, but it looks new (shiny at least). I suppose that leaves timing again. I did call the shop that worked on the car back in September and he said it couldn't be the timing. He refused to take a look at the car again, claiming that there was no warranty on the work he performed due to the condition of the engine. He did say that when he did the timing it was set to "factory spec." Don't know if that helps any. I'll try doing the rudimentary timing check that v8volvo outlined awhile back. I'm enrolling in a diesel tech class in the fall and hoping that will give me a few more ideas. All other suggestions are welcome. Thanks for reading.

Jason
04-07-2010, 03:53 AM
Crack all the injector lines and make sure they are all squirting fuel, stuff will dry out in 7 months. I would also squirt some oil down the manifold so some gets into the cylinders. The car my friend alex got sat for a quite a while, and didn't start untill we did that. It wasn't low on compression, but it had sat so long the cylinders were dry and the rings weren't making enough of a seal.

Jason

ngoma
04-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Mine would not start at all with 3 bad glowplugs when cold. By your description you did not check the GPs correctly. You must remove the buss bars and check each one individually for continuity. Does your car have a block heater?

EvoStevo
04-07-2010, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the responses, guys.

@ngoma: I had a feeling the bus bar needed to come off. So was I measuring resistance on all of them then? If that's the case, I was still only getting less than 1 ohm. Yes, the car does have a block heater. I had forgotten about that actually. Thanks for the reminder!

@Jason: I'll try cracking all the lines next time and getting some oil in the cylinders. I hadn't thought about that. Thanks!

ngoma
04-08-2010, 10:53 AM
If the block heater works, the car should start (after several hours plugged in) IF all that was wrong were some bad GPs. My experience was: Three bad GPs, car would not start in the morning if it was not plugged in. Once started and run, it would start fine w/o block heater every time for the rest of the day.

v8volvo
04-08-2010, 10:13 PM
Yep you need the bus bar taken off to make an accurate measurement. A good trick is to remove the bar from the front 5 plugs but leave it attached to #6, which is difficult to reach with the multimeter leads. You measure the resistance of the front 5 plugs directly, then use the bus bar to measure the resistance of #6. Just make sure the bus bar isn't grounding out to any other metal engine parts and is only touching the glow plug terminal, then measure the GP's resistance through it. I forget what exact resistance is called for on the plugs but basically you are just looking for either open or not. If there is fairly low resistance then the plug can be considered OK; if there is infinite resistance then it is bad.

FWIW if the new plugs that the guy put in were anything but the exact right Bosch ones I would suspect they could be bad even if they are fairly recent. Seems like crappy plugs from Autolite, NGK, Champion etc can either burn out very quickly, or can heat improperly (glow somewhere other than the tip, not get hot enough etc). If in doubt about a plug, replace it with the correct Bosch one to eliminate the question.

As others have said these engines will not start at all if they have more than 1 or 2 dead plugs -- especially if the engine is tired and/or has been sitting. Yours is probably both of those.