It ain't a gusher, but I am still leaking oil....

[lmwatbullrun]

After I checked the valves on the 740 D24T a couple weeks ago, I had to replace the valve cover gasket. (old one was dry and brittle and leaked oil. <mumbling>) At the time, all I had was a cork set. Did that, carefully using the passenger side gasket on the passenger side and making sure the two cam cap rubber pieces were properly placed. Still leaking oil. Seemed to be coming out at the juncture where the cork gasket joins the rubber curved pieces going around the cam bearing and seal at the end, running down between the head/block and the sheet metal, puddling in that little hollow above the crank seal, then flowing into the cam belt space and getting distributed around the inside. (muttering:() Found a place that had the one piece neoprene gasket, and replaced the cork set.

Much improved, no leaks at idle, but still leaking oil when driven at highway speed. ( bad language:mad:) Tightened up the nuts on the valve cover.

Still leaking oil. (much bad language:eek:) Tightened the nuts more, and STILL leaking oil. Clearly, this is not the problem.

Since this area was dry as a bone when I replaced the cam belt, and I don't think I did anything stupid to the cam seal, I cannot figure out why I'm getting this really annoying leak now. It is true that the car was not driven or run much for a couple of years before I replaced the belt, but is it possible that the cam seal is bad? I'm starting to suspect that rascal as the problem; I put a rag in the space between the sheet metal and the block, and there IS oil coming down the front of the block between the block and the sheet metal, so it is not the main seal around the crank. At least it's not JUST the main...

Thoughts/suggestions?

Thoughts?

[lmwatbullrun]

Well, I am going to replace the cam seal and see if that helps.

[lmwatbullrun]

Well, it's not the cam seal, and it's not the valve cover gasket, and it is not the leetle bolts on the front. The cam seal was worn, but didn't look fried. I was surprised that there was no bearing insert on the front cam bearing, but I guess that bearing is really only taking one cylinder's worth of load, and it's good and wide.

I ran the beast for a while after I replaced the cam seal, (which was surprisingly painless once I welded up a copy of the Volvo 9995199 wrench out of a large pipe hanger I scrounged from the dumpster; that tool helps.... ) and it appears that oil is still being deposited on the *leading* edge of the timing belt somewhere below the idler and the water pump, being carried around the belt and past the idler pulley. I know this because I ran it for a while with the upper belt cover off, and carefully wiped the belt clean as it came around. The oil came up from the idler pulley on the outboard side of the belt from the block. This is puzzling.

At any rate, I can think of no other oil source except for the front main shaft seal. How big a pain is that to change? I have the books and the only three things I have not done are removing the alternator/fan bracket, which does not look too tough to do, removing the crankshaft pulley (??? hard/easy, what?) and pulling the old shaft seal (again, how hard is this?) Volvo book mentions special tools, but I have managed pretty well without any so far.

Any comments or responses?

[Jason]

Probably the front main seal. You'll need the counter hold tool to torque that front pulley bolt to the 350ish lbs of torque it takes. (assuming you don't have the special volvo torque multiplier tool). You'll have to re-time the engine so you'll need the dial indicator for the pump, but I think you said you already have that. Pretty much the only tool you'll need is the crank pulley holder tool.

Jason

[lmwatbullrun]

... and have removed and replaced the crank pulley assy a couple of times with no problems so far. What I meant was the crank gear that the timing belt sits on; my mistake (it was quite hot yesterday; I plead dehydration) That I have never removed.

Also, I really wanted to know how bad removing the crank seal is.

Thanks for the response!

[Jason]

Thats what I was talking about... the crank timing gear that the pulley is mounted to. It has a 27mm head size bolt that gets torqued to 350ish lbs of torque. The seal isn't anything strange or special. Pry it out with a screw driver and tap a new one in. Pretty much all there is to it besides retiming the engine and all that bs.

Jason

[piper109]

Sometimes when you remove the valve cover, the studs that hold the cover down become partially screwed out of the head. Then when you replace the cover and tighten the nuts, they tighten with a space under the cover and the gasket is not being squashed and this results in a leak.
Remove the cover again, screw in the studs all the way then replace in the normal way.

I chased a leak for a while there and even replaced the cam shaft seal before realizing the problem. It always seems to be the studs on the ends of the head that do this.

Steve

[lmwatbullrun]

will look into that, thanks for the tip.

[lmwatbullrun]

I have done the following-
Replaced the Valve cover gasket;
Replaced the cam seal;
replaced the front main seal;
checked the VC gasket studs;

And I am STILL getting a trickle of oil on the front timing belt! none at idle, only when driven hard, uphill. Not as bad as it was before I replaced the front main seal, but enough to wet the belt. I am considering removing the belts (fan and alternator) and the timing belt cover, and looking to see where the bloody oil is coming from. THis is starting to really piss me off. ANyone got any ideas?

[lmwatbullrun]

OK, the oil was coming from the front crank seal that I just replaced. I took everything apart, again, and it looks as though there is a groove on the crankshaft. It would appear that the old seal got some rust around it and wore a little groove in the shaft, which I did not see when I replaced it the first time. I got a shaft repair kit from Rock Auto, and plan to install this later today. HAs anyone done one of these? I really don't want to have to remove the oil pump to get at this shaft......

[Jason]

They had a sleeve kit for a d24? Thats suprising. I'm guessing where the seal rides has a ridge or some pits from rust? Normally a little wear grove isn't going to make it leak if the seal is fresh, but pits will. How is the area of the crank just behind the seal? I have trimmed the backside of the outer flange of a seal before to get the seal to set in a little farther so it rides on a fresh area. I suppose if you have the kit though not much need to do that. I don't see why you would have to remove the oil pump though.

Jason

[lmwatbullrun]

In order to install that sleeve, I'd have to pull the oil pump, and in order to do that I'd have to pull the engine and drop the pan. That ain't happening, not this fall.

What I did was carefully measure the distance to the groove, and pick a seal ( I had two different ones with the same part #) that had a shorter distance to the seal lip from the outside face. I checked the dimensions, and if I leave the seal protruding about 0.050, with the different seal dimensions I should be at least 0.100" away from the line.
We'll see if this works.

[lmwatbullrun]

They had a sleeve kit for a d24? Thats suprising. I'm guessing where the seal rides has a ridge or some pits from rust? Normally a little wear grove isn't going to make it leak if the seal is fresh, but pits will. How is the area of the crank just behind the seal? I have trimmed the backside of the outer flange of a seal before to get the seal to set in a little farther so it rides on a fresh area. I suppose if you have the kit though not much need to do that. I don't see why you would have to remove the oil pump though.

Jason

In order for the sleeve lip to get pushed all the way up the shaft, it has to pass through the aluminum housing that surrounds the front end of the crank. so that simply won't work, especially since I have to pull the rim off after I drive the sleeve on. I tried another idea, see above. We'll see if that works

[lmwatbullrun]

no joy with going outboard of the line. Still getting a trickle of oil onto the belt. This is getting to be a serious PITA. If I have to pull the engine to replace the seal, I might as well rebuild an engine and drop it in, which I do NOT have time to do.

I may try your idea, Jason, and go inboard of the old line by trimming a LONG seal. what tool do you use to trim it without warping the seal rim all to hellandgone? I was thinking of a sheet metal nibbler; how did you do it, Jason?

[lmwatbullrun]

Is it possible to burnish the seal bearing area without removing the oil pump?

Is it possible the oil is coming from somewhere else? I saw no evidence of oil leakage from anywhere else, but has anyone run into this problem? That is the oil pump, right there, so could that oil pump be squirting oil out somewhere else?

[Jason]

I used an air powered cut off wheel and went arount the seal very carefully. It could be comming from the oil pump where it bolts to the bock, the oil passages between the pump and block are sealed by a gasket. It could be the gasket is leaking, but I think you would see that. You could check all the 10mm head bolts that hold the pump to the block. I just looked at my greenbook to refresh my memorie, and all that is there is the shoulder of the crank and the seal. I suppose it could be possible that the oil pump is leaking into that area due to wear and allow oil pressure to get behind the seal forcing oil out. One other thing to look for, is there a drain at the bottom of the housing behind the seal to allow oil to get back into the block? Seems like i remember there being something of that nature built in, though i may be thinking of a different engine. I would look at that closely as well and make sure its not plugged up.

Jason

[lmwatbullrun]

I used an air powered cut off wheel and went arount the seal very carefully.

OK, I have a Dremel tool with a diamond cutoff wheel that would do the same thing, maybe get fancy and chuck it up in the lathe and trim it with the Dremel while the lathe spins it. How much did you take off? 0.050"? more?

It could be coming from the oil pump where it bolts to the block, the oil passages between the pump and block are sealed by a gasket. It could be the gasket is leaking, but I think you would see that.

Well, I would not bet on that. The whole front of the block was sticky with oil, and while I did give it a quick wipe, I confess I did not spend a lot of time on that; I've fixated on the seal. There could well have been a leak I missed. If it leaked at the top of the pump, it would run back down the face of the pump to the timing belt drive sprocket and have the same effect. There was a lot of fairly liquid oil on the face of the pump when I took the cover plate off.... Hmmmmm.


You could check all the 10mm head bolts that hold the pump to the block. I just looked at my greenbook to refresh my memorie, and all that is there is the shoulder of the crank and the seal. I suppose it could be possible that the oil pump is leaking into that area due to wear and allow oil pressure to get behind the seal forcing oil out.

Hmmm. I would have thought that the seal was exposed to pump pressure, but the crank journal is well inboard of that in this design. Is this designed just to take the splash?

One other thing to look for, is there a drain at the bottom of the housing behind the seal to allow oil to get back into the block? Seems like i remember there being something of that nature built in, though i may be thinking of a different engine. I would look at that closely as well and make sure its not plugged up.
Jason

There is such a drain, and I squirted it with PB blaster and it appeared to drain back to the block, but if I go back in I will take a closer look. When I first opened it up there was a lot of congealed crap and crud in the area behind the seal, which I removed with Qtips and pipe cleaners but after the first time it seemed pretty clean.

Well, making sure that the pump is not leaking seems a fruitful source of inquiry, and the idea about shortening the seal is also a good one. Perhaps I will pursue these this weekend. Thanks for taking the time to think about this and get back to me, sir!

[Jason]

You would have to be having quite a leek if there is the hole there that I thought. The seal is not supposed to be holding in pressure, just oil in generall from the front main bearing and splashing oil inside the engine. With the drain open, it should be able to drain out faster than it gets in. I would suspect that gasket as having a chunk missing or a crack in it from age. The one that was on my block that I reubuilt was petrafied.
Good luck with it keep us posted.
Jason

[lmwatbullrun]

the more I think about this the more I think the seal is not the problem.

Question: Is it feasible to get sealant in between the pump and the block without completely removing the pan? HOw much play is there in the pump/pickup tube assembly?

[Jason]

Thats probably not gonna work. The pickup is supported pretty well, and is also pretty thick and solid. I suppose if you undo all the bolts into the pump you may be albe to pry on it a little and inject some sealant along the gasket... I don't know how sucessful that will be since the gasket is holding in oil pressure, not just oil sitting in the engine or oil splashing like pretty much any other gasket. The oil here is going to really try to push its way out. I suppose its worth a try.

Jason

[dieselnutjob]

too much crank case pressure?
blocked crank breather system?

I attempted to change the crank oil seal on one my Peugeots last time I changed the flywheel. Due to my hamfistedness in now has two seals as my attempts to fit a new seal I pushed it in too far. Luckily I had a second one so now it has two..... Luckily the seating area is about twice as deep as the seal

Seams okay though

[dieselnutjob]

too much crank case pressure?
blocked crank breather system?

I attempted to change the crank oil seal on one my Peugeots last time I changed the flywheel. Due to my hamfistedness in now has two seals as my attempts to fit a new seal I pushed it in too far. Luckily I had a second one so now it has two..... Luckily the seating area is about twice as deep as the seal

Seams okay though

[v8volvo]

Just read all this. Sorry I didn't comment earlier. Steve mentioned the thing I was going to say, which is that the VC studs can get screwed part way out and then their shoulder prevents the VC gasket from seating all the way down against the head. The other thing that can happen is that the valve cover's sealing surface can become warped, which becomes especially likely when the above situation involving incompletely-installed VC studs happens and the cover experiences uneven pressures and positions.

These engines rarely leak from anywhere other than the valve cover. I can't tell from all the info here if you have pinpointed exactly from whence the oil is coming. Is it trickling down from above? Getting flung up from below? You've now replaced everything in the T-belt area at least once and it's still leaking... spending a little more investigative time trying to figure out the source might be a time-saver in the end, rather than replacing more parts.

If the valve cover is straight, you can torque the nuts quite tight when you use the neoprene gasket.

[lmwatbullrun]

I very carefully straightened the valve cover nut/stud seating areas and the little steel reinforcements that sit on top of it, and I also used some forma gasket outboard of the neoprene seal itself, and I seated that quite firmly on the head. I also have packed paper towels between the sheet metal timing belt backer and the block, to catch any stray oil that runs down the front face of the block from the head. It does not appear that any is. This I *have* checked. Studs appear to be even height all across the head.

When checking this with the timing belt cover off and the engine running, the oil is coming up from the crank area and being flung off the belt as it goes around the cam gear, especially at higher revs. The delay between the startup and the appearance of oil on the belt is fairly short, less than a minute after startup.

I could probably live with the loss of oil, at least for the short term, but the problem is that at speed, this oil gets blown onto the right front brake, and THAT is a real problem.

[lmwatbullrun]

too much crank case pressure?
blocked crank breather system?

I attempted to change the crank oil seal on one my Peugeots last time I changed the flywheel. Due to my hamfistedness in now has two seals as my attempts to fit a new seal I pushed it in too far. Luckily I had a second one so now it has two..... Luckily the seating area is about twice as deep as the seal

Seams okay though

Doubt it's excessive crankcase pressure, as there is no 'puffing' on this motor, it's tight in that regard.

[lmwatbullrun]

after due consideration, I am reasonably sure I have a bad oil pump gasket.

Here's the question: Am I better off pulling the motor out in toto, or can I jack the engine enough to pull the pan? Which is the better approach? When answering, please keep in mind that I do not have a garage.

[Jason]

I really cant see how you could drop the oil pan with the engine in the car very easily. By the time you get the engine up high enough to get the oil pan out of the way to get the two bolts that are holding the pickup tube to the oil pump housing, your pretty much already pulling the engine out. Everthing would have to be disconnected at that point to allow the engine to move that far.

Jason

[m-reg]

doh i never read this thread before could have suggesed oil pump -they allways leak on the tdi`s

[lmwatbullrun]

ok, looks like an engine pull. Sigh. Anything else I ought to do while I have the engine out?

[v8volvo]

Sorry to hear that outcome. At least it will be a cheap repair, parts-wise... heavy on the labor, and even when it's your own it's hard to think of that as "free", but at least you don't have to pay for it. Agree that it sounds like an engine pull job.

Any cooling system work would certainly be worth doing with the engine out. If you haven't had a new radiator or thermostat in a while, now is the time, and carefully check all hoses. I posted a way to cheaply create a set of new heater hoses from easily-obtainable parts to replace the expensive stock ones that, if original, are 25+ years old now... that is worth doing if yours are in questionable shape. Radiators are available new, or if you have an original all-metal one, you can get it re-cored. Or still get a new one, but if you have a metal rad, don't throw it away... someone here will want it as a core someday.

Anything else that is tricky to do/reach with the motor in situ is worth doing too. #5 and 6 glow plugs, timing belts (you'll have the front one off anyway for pulling the oil pump), little coolant hose on the back of the head that always gets covered in oil, rear cam seal, etc...

[lmwatbullrun]

Where can I find an oil pump?

I have finally gotten to the point that I am going to pull the motor and replace the gasket, and as long as I have it out I am going to replace the oil pump, if possible.

I also will need an oil pan gasket, which I have not been able to source. Any suggestions on that?

[Volvoist]

Where can I find an oil pump?

I have finally gotten to the point that I am going to pull the motor and replace the gasket, and as long as I have it out I am going to replace the oil pump, if possible.

I also will need an oil pan gasket, which I have not been able to source. Any suggestions on that?

To be honest, these pumps are very robust. I doubt it needs to be replaced. New ones are very expensive if you do decide to replace. I would reseal it. I believe the oil pan needs to come off in order to change it as the lower portion shares the pan gasket. Perhaps someone else has done it without pulling the pan though.

[michaelovitch]

The oil pan can stay in place i'm 99% sure:cool:

but you have to remove the crankshaft, bolt so the timing belt.:(

That's true it's very strong part.

measure the wear

you can port it if it's off the engine
it will help a bit your efficiency.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/michaelovitch/Volvo%20240%20diesel/16-1.jpg

[anders]

You will have to pull the pan as the pickup tube for the oil is bolted to the pump, can't get to those bolts without pulling the pan:eek: Pull the engine and do as V8volvo suggested and Paint the block while your at it:)

[v8volvo]

Pan gaskets are still pretty easy to find. Any IMC reseller has them (i.e. gowestyautoparts.com). Or you can do as VW now does and use a high quality sealant. Grey Reinzosil is the only thing that I would use. Very thin bead is all that is necessary.

Good luck, you will be glad when you get this one fixed... I know it has been giving you a hard time for quite a while now!

[v8volvo]

Pan gaskets are still pretty easy to find. Any IMC reseller has them (i.e. gowestyautoparts.com). Or you can do as VW now does and use a high quality sealant. Grey Reinzosil is the only thing that I would use. Very thin bead is all that is necessary.

Good luck, you will be glad when you get this one fixed... I know it has been giving you a hard time for quite a while now!