Progress Report: No-Start N/A D24

[EvoStevo]

Well, I finally ended up swallowing my pride and taking my 245 Diesel to someone. I read the procedure for pump timing and decided that even if I was able to determine that it was out of time, setting it back would be beyond my current skills. The place I took it to is called Dumas Diesel Injection. They say they've worked on Volvo diesels before, but not in a long time. I asked if they have the tools for holding the cam and pump gear in place and they said yes. They've confirmed that the timing is off. I'm somewhat concerned however, as the head mechanic insisted that the pump cannot get out of time once it has been set. Pumps can get out of sync by themselves, right?

[Jason]

I would agree with the mechanic. It really cant change unless the pump came loose and moved on the bracket, or the timing belt jumped a tooth. It would have had to been very loose for that to happen. Did the car used to run and just stopped one day, or did you buy it that way?

Jason

[Jason]

I should clarify, the pump timing does change over time with wear, which is why it should be checked. It wont, however change overnight to where it wont start, unless one of the above things happened. I also forgot to mention its possible the cam sprocket came loose and slipped.

Jason

[v8volvo]

I replied to your thread over on Tbricks... but yes those are some other possibilities I forgot to mention. If the front or rear cam bolt is not tight enough, those sprockets can slip, and if the pump bolts where it attaches to the bracket are loose the pump could shift too. However, I think the mechanics would have noticed if the pump were wobbling around, and you probably would have seen it too because the marks on the end of the bracket would not be lined up. (Unless you didn't end up checking that.)

Either way, there is something going on here... it came out of time for a reason, not just out of bad luck. ;-)

[heavyequipment]

You haven't mentioned how this all started...

It would be pretty rare for the timing to change significantly without some obvious reason; loose sprockets, loose mounts, damaged belt...

More often, an engine that won't start isn't getting fuel to the injectors or has low compression. Crank the engine with an injector tube loosened and see if fuel leaks from it.

If there is fuel getting to the injectors, check the preheaters: Are they getting power during the preheat stage? Do they all heat? You can test them individually with an ohmmeter and compare.

If you are getting fuel and preheat, you can try to increase the compression for starting: Remove the front rubber boot from the intake manifold and squirt engine oil in, trying to reach as many cylinders as you can (don't inject enough oil to cause hydraulic lock). The oil helps the rings to seal, and as it occupies space in the combustion chamber it increases the compression ratio. I ran a worn-out NA Volvo for several months that way; it lacked power but otherwise ran fine. I usually only had to oil it first thing in the morning; the rest of the day it started OK.

[Jason]

Let us know what they find.

Jason

[EvoStevo]

Here's the thread I made on tbricks for the whole back story: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=170595

Jason, when I bought the car it started up fairly easily but then became increasingly more difficult to start until finally it wouldn't start at all one morning.

I called the shop this morning and now they tell me it's not the timing after all. They now suspect low compression is the issue. The head technician said something about checking through the intake. Maybe they're going to try the oil method heavyequipment mentioned?

I will be posting updates exclusively in this thread from now on.

[Jason]

How long did it take for the starting problem to get worse? Seems like that could be a glow plug problem, or maybe injectors with a crappy spray pattern or partially clogged tips. As the engine wears and compression gets lower, thats a pretty drawn out process unless you are sucking sand down the intake. Its not like your wear the rings enough each day to loose 10lbs of compression to where its not starting by the end of the week, see what I'm getting at?

It could be the rings are coaked up with soot from dirty buring, have you heard of or tried BG 109 compression restore? If you go to their website it tells all about it. Its for diesel engines only. I have used it once, and plan to use it on my D24T on the next oil change.

Jason

[Jason]

http://www.bgprod.com/products/engineoil.html


theres the link, a couple down on the page.

Jason

[EvoStevo]

How long did it take for the starting problem to get worse? Seems like that could be a glow plug problem, or maybe injectors with a crappy spray pattern or partially clogged tips. As the engine wears and compression gets lower, thats a pretty drawn out process unless you are sucking sand down the intake. Its not like your wear the rings enough each day to loose 10lbs of compression to where its not starting by the end of the week, see what I'm getting at?

It could be the rings are coaked up with soot from dirty buring, have you heard of or tried BG 109 compression restore? If you go to their website it tells all about it. Its for diesel engines only. I have used it once, and plan to use it on my D24T on the next oil change.

Jason

Thanks for the suggestion. I've used BG products before with great results. I've only had the car since the middle of March and the starting problem got worse and worse since day 1 until the middle of May when it finally just wouldn't start at all. I talked to the mechanic again today and he was saying something about "getting explosions from the intake" every time they tried firing it up. Maybe the valves aren't sealing?

[heavyequipment]

"getting explosions from the intake" sounds like a possible timing belt problem, or burnt, bent, or maladjusted valves. I wouldn't crank it anymore before checking valve timing. Bent valves, broken cam, and damaged head can result.

[Jason]

Ya that really sounds like an out of time cam, or tight valves.

Jason

[EvoStevo]

So I finally heard back from the shop. Apparently, two of the glow plugs were bad AND the pump timing was off (I don't know how it was off, then on again when they checked it before). The mechanic says it was "off 180 degrees" and continued to say that it was at "6" when it should've been at "2" or something along those lines. The issue of the explosions from the intake manifold was not addressed, but he did say there was excessive blow-by and that the motor was generally "in not-so-good shape." I asked if he could check to see if the crank pulley bolt was torqued down but he was reluctant to do so (he said there was too much that needed to come off). I also asked about rear belt tension and he said it was good and that the belt wasn't missing any teeth. He says the car starts up fine with "no smoke," which I suppose is good because I used to get a lot of smoke before at start up.

I'm altogether not impressed that it took them this long to test the glow plugs (which I asked them to do on day 1). Should I insist that they check the crank bolt torque?

[Jason]

I think it was just the glow plugs. The same thing just happened to me, it was starting fine, then getting harder, then to the point of having to cycle them twice even when warm outside on the first startup of the day. How could the timing go "out 180 degrees" over night? That makes no sense.

I would have them torque the lower bolt if possible, or if not take it to someone who can.

Jason

[reed]

How old are the belts? You should have just had them replace the belts. Dont worry I will sell you a new head when the belt breaks.

[EvoStevo]

According to the previous owner, the timing belt was replaced roughly 10,000 miles ago. I took the cover off and looked at it and I'm not worried about it yet. I'm not sure how many miles the rear belt has on it, but I asked the mechanic if it looked like it needed to be replaced and he said "it looks ok."

[Jason]

Well either way, good to hear its running again. You should probably just replace all the glow plugs if they are on their way out just for the piece of mind.

Jason

[EvoStevo]

Wow, so I just picked it up today. I guess when the mechanic told me the engine was in "not-so-good condition" he meant that the compression is really low. I called to tell him I was coming to get it and I guess he went out and tried to start it but it just wouldn't. He ended up removing three glow plugs and squirting some oil on top of the pistons to get it started and just left it running until I got there. He warned me that if I let it sit over night, I might not be able to start it again (:mad:). So, besides tearing it down and replacing the rings, what else can I do to remedy this? I'm going to try that BG 109 additive to see if it does anything and I remembered that the engine did come with a block heater (though I haven't tested it yet), could these things possibly help? Also, I think someone mentioned that I could shoot oil into the intake to seal the rings better. Would that be just as effective as going in through the glow plug holes?

Also, the car seemed much peppier in first and second gear than I remember it. Could this be due to the timing getting fixed? I was thinking after almost three months driving my bimmer every day that it would be difficult readjusting to the slowness of my diesel.

I'm really bummed that this car isn't even close to what it was cracked up to be when I bought it. I don't think it's the previous owner's fault though, since he was just repeating to me what he was told by the guy he bought it from. So, the plan is to eventually score a D24T out of a junkyard and rebuild it in my major engine repair class this coming semester. Hopefully one will turn up soon.

[Jason]

There must be other glow plugs out or something. The timing would help it have more power, but I cant see the compression being that low to where it wouldn't start when it was running fine before. Didn't you say it pretty much died within a week or so as it started to get harder and harder to start?

Jason

[EvoStevo]

There must be other glow plugs out or something. The timing would help it have more power, but I cant see the compression being that low to where it wouldn't start when it was running fine before. Didn't you say it pretty much died within a week or so as it started to get harder and harder to start?

Jason

All of the glow plugs were replaced. He gave me back the old ones. It gradually got harder and harder to start over the course of two months.

[Jason]

Oh ok, that makes a little more sense. So have you been able to get it re started? Is it cranking over pretty fast? From what I'm gathering, it started ok for the mechanic the first time after he fixed it then no go?

Jason

[EvoStevo]

Oh ok, that makes a little more sense. So have you been able to get it re started? Is it cranking over pretty fast? From what I'm gathering, it started ok for the mechanic the first time after he fixed it then no go?

Jason

Basically, yeah. I'm going to go out and try it in a few. The cranking speed seems about the same.

[Jason]

I would give that bg 109 a shot, I know the NA d24s were bad about sooting up the rings. If it is low on compression, I wouldn't count on just a re ring job, you will probably have to get it bored oversize. They are bad about wearing the cylinders in an egg shape. It will run for a few thousand miles and you'll be low on compression again.

Jason

[77volvo245]

To get more life out of your D24 it's also a good idea to put an oil cooler. I still have to put one on my diesel.

[EvoStevo]

Well, it's been three days and the car has started up every time. I still need to mash the throttle down as it's cranking and keep the RPMs around 1000-1500 for a few seconds before it will idle, but it runs. I don't know what the mechanic was talking about when he said there was less smoke, because there's still plenty. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all your help throughout the past two months. It's definitely been a learning experience.

[Jason]

Try out the BG 109 and let us know if it helps. Also did you get your injectors pop tested? If the spray pattern is crappy or they test low that could be a big part of the problem.

Jason

[IceV_760]

..They are bad about wearing the cylinders in an egg shape. It will run for a few thousand miles and you'll be low on compression again.

Jason

If i can quote and correct some points would that be okay?
Since d24x powered engiens were pretty commonly used here on Finland on taxi's on 90's in 940series, and it had also it own fans in 80's too.
This is same problem as Mercedez-Benz had on w124/w210 on their 5 and 6 cylinder engines. Thing that kills both D24 and Mercedez OMxxx family is long idle times. Cylindergroup is so long at coolant dont cool anymore on last one or two cylinders
in idle enough anymore, neither oil pressure isnt enough to quarantee 100 procentish lubrication . These two compared together adds increased wearing to last two cylinders, and wears them to egg shape.
One solution is to raise idlespeed, which increases the oil and coolant flow.
Also every start wears d24, because the placing of oil pump,
few first second cylinderhead runs without/with low oil since pump needs to suck oil first from "oil storage" (lol what is the word).
To help to that case you can add 3 desilitres more oil as max.amount is without causing cranksaft to be in danger to hit oil surface in any situation.
Well, gone little out of topic sorry about that.

EDITED some really crappy writing and few other things.

[Jason]

Please, dont hesitate to share whatever insight you have!

The dry startup is a problem, and is aggrevated if the engine is low on oil, or parked on an uphill incline. I run mine a half quart or so overfull, and when parking on a hill, orient the car so the nose is pointed down hill. My engine gets oil pressure within a second or two of startup.

Besides the above listed issues, the non turbo blocks were softer, so the soot that builds up in the oil, and in the rings wore the block even faster.

At least it is running though! I'm very interested to see what kind of difference the BG makes, also what kind of shape your injectors are in.

How does it run once its hot?

Jason

[EvoStevo]

How does it run once its hot?

Jason

It runs pretty good, I would say (at least as good as it ever has since I've had it). One thing though that was a problem even before the car refused to start is inconsistent oil pressure. It started after I changed the oil for the first time. I had consulted the manual before going to the auto parts store and remembered that it said 7.4 qts or something like that. I bought two 1-gallon jugs of 15w-40 Delvac and ended up using it all (I wasn't paying attention while I was pouring). I figured it'd be ok and just ran it. Immediately, I notice that my oil pressure is high. Usually the gauge reads around 2 bar at idle, but this time it was close to 4! When I gave it throttle, the needle would go past 5 bar and stick even after I was off the gas. It would then gradually lower itself back down to around 4 bar. But then sometimes I would be driving and the pressure would drop down to 2 bar at idle. The problem remains, and just today it got as high as 5 bar at idle. I had honestly forgotten about this little detail until I drove it this morning.

[IceV_760]

Wow. ~7.6litres. That is too much, i suggest you right away to go on some workshop and suck some oil away. The engine itself takes 6,2 litres ( 1.368 gallons) oil + filters capacity (notice: Volvos own big oil filter has capacity of 0,5litres (0,132gallons) but if you buy same size sparepart filter like HENGST or one other, cant remember mark, it has only capacity of 0,4litres (0,105gallons) even it has same outer size, there i failed when i always fill to max possible where cranksaft wont hit oil surface on any situation. So i gone and filled as usually but noticed on 11% hill at motor was vibrating, wasnt on too high gear, so i come to decision cranksaft was hitting oil surface, not good. Had to change new oils, since hadnt availability to suck some oil from it. Now works as intendet. So take a look about whats the capacity of filter) and then you can add something below 0,1gallons to help startups.

Jason, i didnt know earlier d24 blocks were softer. That explains why older people talk almost firstly when they see my car, at d24 had poor reputation on 70's and start of 80's until 760 and d24t got presented.
And the problem was just the wearing.

[IceV_760]

And to the EVO.
I read whole topic throught and noticed to part where it smokes.
That is known, all old d24smoke. But does it smoke on idle even a little blue smoke?
Dont know about USA but here on europe like everyone knows what is main issue on that motorfamily. "Pre-chambers" (word?:) ) cracks WITHOUT exeption always from the "mouth" . It isnt dangerous when it cracks normally (how can be something like part of engine cracking be normal ;) ) but there is change at it cracks to two pieces when it can drop out from head to piston. Catasthrope. But, when it is enoguh cracked and have too wide "chasm" i think the sprayed diesel will find it way to cylinder and on top of piston where it just simply burns without adding power and causes the smoke. But dont be too worried about smoke, mine smokes too but runs perfect. Smoke from d24 means its on good condition:D

[Jason]

2 gallons shouldn't be too much if you changed the filter. The system holds 7.5 quarts with filter change. 2 gallons is only 8. Thats exactly what I just dumped in my car when I changed the oil. Mine is about a quarter inch above the full mark. You have to overfill the engine by something around 3 quarts I believe before its up to the crank as IceV is saying.

The non turbo blocks were cast with a lower nickle content, which made them softer. Also the lack of the piston cooling jets wasn't helpfull either. On top of that, the earlier D24s had too tight of rod journal clearences, so very little oil was slung from the crank to lube the pistons and walls, which made wear problems worse.

Jason

[Jason]

As for oil pressure, it may have had too thin of oil in it, which kept the pressure lower when it was cold, so it looked more consistant. 15w-40 is a pretty thick oil, and pressure will be higher when its cold. 2 bar at idle is still plenty of oil pressure, thats something like 30lbs.

Jason

[IceV_760]

I loved it. I loved the choice you did.
Here on Finland where temperature is under 32`F on winter,
even the Volvos markrepairers recommendet the use of 15w40 to that engine.
10w was absolute limit and 5w was just "no". It works good on Finlands climation which is colder than americas excluding Canadie, so i believe it works on you too.

Hve you checked your pump setups EVO? I had a little problem which caused me to have pull throttle to start and few secs after it. If you go and screw pump, and touch to coldstart device (the one attached to pumps side) it gets really easy out of par, so when your engine is half-warm, glowplugs wont work or either coldstart device, which makes it hard to start there.
Have you checked it?

[77volvo245]

Hve you checked your pump setups EVO? I had a little problem which caused me to have pull throttle to start and few secs after it. If you go and screw pump, and touch to coldstart device (the one attached to pumps side) it gets really easy out of par, so when your engine is half-warm, glowplugs wont work or either coldstart device, which makes it hard to start there.
Have you checked it?

I just found out on my d24 that my cold start device was stuck on and I was told there known to fail. So when I replaced my leaky pump I rip out the cold start device out. When cold startng I just keep my foot on the gas for about 10 to 15seconds to warm it up. It works fine for me that way.