Dead... no signs of life.

[Josh]

Well, I went out to start the car this morning and it just turns over and over and over with no sign of life. I tried pumping the gas a little as that usually wakes her up after a cold night but that doesn't seem to make any difference. It almost sounds like it has no compression... and I seriously hope that isn't the case. I'm in an apartment complex with no tools or anything so I'm a little stuck... my dad is coming down tomorrow so I could have him bring a few tools if I need any.

What do you guys suggest I check/do?

[IceV_760]

Do it promise any? Starts even for few seconds?
Any strange noises? Can you tell some more facts so we can
try to help you fast to get your car running.

[Josh]

No strange noises, it sounds like maybe 2 or 3 cylinders are firing but not enough to get it spun up enough to stay running. If I stay on the starter for a while it doesn't really change much.

[IceV_760]

How cold there is? I would first test glowplug relay,
my quess is at its dead. And you could also check does
fuel come from nozzles, open one fuelpipe from nozzle,
and check does fuel come out of there when you spin start.
Then it might be fuelfilter/ stucked fuelline.
Those are few shots to start with.

[volvo d6]

You problem is bad glowplugs and winter. Pumping the gas doesen`t work on diesel. Try to keep the throttle at full when you try to start.

[Josh]

full throttle doesn't seem to make a difference. Its smoking like crazy when trying to start though. brownish/grey smoke. I'd say its definitely the glow plugs since it was running fine like 10 hours ago. I wish I had money to replace them :(

btw, I can hear the relay click on and off, so I know it isn't that.

[IceV_760]

Relay might work, but wireline which that relay connect might be broken,
so even relay turns on and off, it maybe dont connect electricity to plugs.
You can easily test are plugs working with testing lamp. Take the metal-rail which connects glowplugs out, and just put another wire to + on battery,
and another one to glowplug. If lamp doesnt light, its broken.

PS: dont connect electric on with key.

[Josh]

The smoke that is coming out is very sweet smelling... that indicates overfueling?

[IceV_760]

Also the belt which uses fuel pump might have "jumped"
and therefore pump timing is on ass, even
its 180* degrees wrong, you can get it started, but it dont
take any revs, which might be the situation on you?
Theres no way it overfuels, or some nozzles have broken,
but if i can quess, the problem is timing which have changed,
IF we think problem is on fuel side.

[Josh]

I don't think the pump timing could have jumped since it was running fine last night when I turned it off. Its gotta be the glowplugs. The sweet smell is probably from not being able to burn any of the fuel.

[IceV_760]

Well check them, it is really fast.
First you could check do there come any electric
to that rail right after you turn electrics on,
when relay still connects electric.

[volvo d6]

Try to connect a cable from pluss on the battery on the connector between the glowplugs in 10 sec or something. Then remove it and try to start. It is a very often failure that the relay don`t put power out.

[Jason]

did the temp drop 30 or 40 degrees? glow plugs don't all go bad all at once over night. test for power at the glow plugs for power when you turn on the ignition. you may have had one glow plug short out internally which will drain current and keep the rest of them from getting hot. that happened to my car and it would barely start at 50 degrees. check the resistance of all of them. when mine crapped out i just disconnected the bad one and it started fine on the other 5 until i had time to replace the one. Jason

[Josh]

well, it was about 50ish degrees as the high yesterday and it hit about 25 overnight.. but I drove it in the middle of the night and it started fine (like it normally does...which isn't all that great in the first place)...

Dad is bringing a test light and some other stuff down tomorrow when they come. We'll check it out.

[Jason]

Well, as was said above the relay could have gone bad. It may be clicking but no current is going to the plugs. That will be easily diagnosed with the test light at the glow plugs when you turn the key. If thats good than go down the line disconnecting the bus bar and checking the resistance of each plug. Obviously if there is no continuity its bad, and if one is shorted the resistance will be super high. I cant remember what is normal, but lets say it was arounnd 200 for a normal plug. The bad one was up around 700 or something like that. The difference in the reading is very obvious.

Jaon

[v8volvo]

Check the glow plug fuse. It's screwed in to the bottom of the relay, a big flat blade style fuse on the bottom side of the relay (on the driver's strut tower). Could have burned out.

If it is cold out and your plugs are all dead, or if only one or two are working, there is no way it will ever start. If there is smoke then you know you are getting fuel at the injectors. The timing could jump on shutdown -- had that happen once on an old Rabbit diesel, mysterious but it did happen and I had to retime the motor before it would start. An easy check would be to see if the notch on the back of the injection pump pulley *roughly* lines up with the hash mark on the rear flange of the injection pump when the crank is at TDC (sight through the hole in the bellhousing under where the pump is and watch for the "0" mark on the flywheel to appear in the opening and line it up with the pointer inside the hole). If the marks on the pump are anywhere close when the crank is at TDC then it should be OK, at least it should be where it was before when it ran. If they are even as much as one tooth off -- let alone two or three -- it will not start at all. All you need to do this check is a 27mm socket for the crank bolt and some patience, no special tools, so it would be worth checking if you have time.

[axL_]

I also think it's the pump timing belt that has jumped over, they can often do that just as they stop or start

[Josh]

So, all of the glow plugs have power (used test light) and the 3 that are easy to reach all give pretty small readings on the ohmmeter (if I'm using it correctly)...

[Josh]

We just towed it up to my parent's house 100 miles away via tow rope... with a Toyota Tercel. That was exciting. Its in our shop now. Sounds kinda like there's more than just a problem with glowplugs.

We are going to test the compression on it tomorrow.. If any of the Portland/Salem people have any extra time sometime soon to lend a hand to a diesel-stupid pair of gearheads... it would be greatly appreciated.. Beer and a hot meal in payment?

[Jason]

It could be a timing issue with the belt. The engine isn't going to be starting and running one minute and then be totally worn out with low compression the next time you go to start it! You need to check the other three plugs as well. I doubt it would start on only 3 in cool to cold weather. Mine at one point had two bad glow plugs and in warm weather with the engine cold it was an extended cranking time compaired to normal.. I'm talking 70 degrees outside. Only 3 plugs possibly working and 40 or so degrees I doubt it would happen.

Keep us posted.

Jason

[Slobodan]

I would do it, but I am helping 77volvo245 with a head gasket today.

[Josh]

Well, we're going to see what exactly is wrong with it today (even though its 22 degrees).

Sadly, if the headgasket is gone or worse, we're thinking about buying a donor car and switching it over to B230FT with a 5-speed.. It'd almost be cheaper than rebuilding and would most definitely be more fun to drive at that point.

[IceV_760]

Dont listen gasser guys about funnines of b230:s,
their just jealous since they cant get their hands to diesels.

[Josh]

Hmm... dad was able to put his finger up to the #1 cylinder glow plug hole while I turned it over and it didn't hurt him... shouldn't it be pretty intense compression coming through that hole?

[Josh]

Took out the glow plug for the #4 cylinder and it was dripping with oil... any idea what that would mean?

[Jason]

Maybe you lost a ring on one of the pistons. Yes there should be a decent amount of air comming out of the glow plug hole on the compression stroke. I still don't see how this happened over night!

Jason

[Josh]

Well it didn't just happen overnight. Its been getting harder and harder to start ever since I bought it. In the last few weeks it sometimes would take quite a bit of cranking to get it to spin up, and I'd have to pump the gas to get it to build up the revs from zero. It was smoking quite a bit more the last week it was running than any other time... Not really an instant problem. :(

[EvoStevo]

Well it didn't just happen overnight. Its been getting harder and harder to start ever since I bought it. In the last few weeks it sometimes would take quite a bit of cranking to get it to spin up, and I'd have to pump the gas to get it to build up the revs from zero. It was smoking quite a bit more the last week it was running than any other time... Not really an instant problem. :(

Sounds very similar to what happened with mine. Hope you can figure it out. I'll start trying to fix mine again when it stops raining then maybe you and I can compare notes.

[v8volvo]

Almost guarantee you the #4 glow plug you took out that you thought was wet with oil is actually soaked in fuel. Odds are your injectors have never been rebuilt, and after a few hundred thousand miles and over two decades, they are beginning to leak... not to mention which, you have been cranking it over and trying to start it. The front three glow plugs were dry when you took them out because they are still live, according to your resistance measurements, so they have been getting hot enough to burn the fuel off of them when it gets sprayed down by the injector above. I'll bet money that the #4 plug is dead, and that is why it is wet, and also part of why the motor is not starting.

I think your problems are probably not as serious as you think they are. Despite their reputation, these engines are actually pretty tough units as long as they are not abused (which really means only three things: use of low-quality non-synthetic oil, overheating, or neglect of routine maintenance such as timing belts, valve adjustments, glow plugs and injector rebuilds). In the wintertime, when the cold weather sets in, there is always a rash of people thinking their car has finally died because it won't start anymore. Notice that here in the Pacific Northwest (I'm a few hours north of you in Seattle), we are experiencing temperatures that are about as cold as it ever gets around our region. These are the kinds of conditions that test your diesel's cold starting ability, which means timing, valves, injectors, and most of all, glow plugs. If an IDI diesel has good glow plugs in all cylinders it WILL start even if it is very worn, assuming other factors (timing, valves, fuel etc) are in spec. I am virtually certain engine wear is not the cause of your sudden failure. It might be an ongoing issue in your motor's life, but I believe it is not what caused this particular episode.

If it was smoking a particularly large amount leading up to the no-start, I would be looking more and more at fuel quality and at engine timing. Is the crank bolt loose, allowing the timing belt drive sprocket to slip? What about the front or rear cam sprocket bolts? If any of those works loose enough for the sprocket to move, the engine will come out of time and not start. I mentioned before about doing a rudimentary visual check of basic timing, which requires no tools and will ensure that the timing is at least close enough for the engine to start. Give that a try and see what you find out.

Smoke is also caused by incorrectly adjusted valves, and if they are severely out of adjustment it can cause a loss of compression. As the valves and valve seats wear, the valve lash DECREASES (contrary to what most people assume). The valves get tighter, not looser. If neglected, they eventually tighten up to the point that they are not completely closing, and that causes major issues since the cylinder seal is lost and achieving full compression is impossible. That might be why you experienced additional smoke and felt so little compression from one of your cylinders. If you don't know whether the valves are properly adjusted, get a set of angled feeler gauges for a few bucks and check it. Takes only about 10 minutes.

If one or multiple cylinders are low on compression, you will be able to hear it as the engine cranks, since the cranking speed will be irregular. Do you hear an abnormal rhythm as it cranks on the starter?

What kind of fuel do you have in it? If it's diesel, is it winterized to deal with cold temps? If it's biodiesel, could the cold weather have gelled it up?

Don't give up hope and switch to the dark side. A gasser swap is not the answer! I think you're looking at something simpler than you expect, like a failed injector, a bunch of bad glow plugs, wrong timing, wrong valve lash, or some bad fuel. D24Ts do wear out, but not in a week. That is still considered a very short progression of symptoms... yes, I almost would call it an "instant problem." Cover all the basics before you assume the worst. I believe your diesel will ride again. :)

[Jason]

From what I read you had said it was running a few hours before and now wouldn't do anything. I was under the impression that it was a sudden problem. Even with the harder starting over time, I absolutely agree with everything George said. Did you check the wet glow plug for being good? I would bet two of those back three were already bad, and when the 3rd went bad and the temps dropped that little extra bit, it was no go.

Let us know what you find.

Jason

[Josh]

Its running now :)

Can't reach the 6th glowplug but 2 of the 5 we could get to were bad. It took a LONG time to get it started after we replaced the 2 bad ones.

We're reading 150psi on 2 cylinders (including the #4cyl) and 300 on 3 others. Not so good. I'm not sure if it'll start again in the morning.

So, how much / how hard would it be to have the valve lash adjusted?

[Jason]

You can do the last glow plug by leaving it attached to the bus bar. Just loosen the nut a little so the plug can spin, then use a wrench to screw it out. Use the bus bar to install the new injector. It works pretty well to fish it in there. Glad to hear its running. Those two numbers are pretty low though. Definently do the valves.

Jason

[v8volvo]

That's a common story. The front 3 plugs are easy to access so they get replaced often. #4 is not as easy, 5 is very tricky and 6 seems almost impossible to most mechanics. Therefore the rear ones essentially never get replaced. The car starts OK most of the summer and fall, but then winter comes and the cold temps finally hit and all of a sudden the engine is dead.

Glad to hear it's running again. Replacing the #6 plug is not that bad if you are patient. I have an 8mm wrench with an S-bend in it that helps to get the nut on the terminal loose, and then you just have to take your time and screw the plug out, going in through the rear belt. If you're really having a hard time, removing the #6 injector makes access much easier so that is a way out if you need it. I'm not surprised it was tough to start with the new plugs in, since the rings were probably pretty gummed up with excess fuel from previous attempts to start by that point. It won't be as difficult next time if it now has 5 good plugs in it, though if #6 plug is dead (very likely it is) it will have a miss at startup.

Congrats on getting it going.

[Josh]

Oh, and V8Volvo, my car has surprisingly few miles on it. I just rolled over 120k on it :)

Looked like 3 of the 6 glow plugs had been replaced before and the two dead ones were the older looking ones.

I'm hoping we can do a valve lash adjustment sometime soon but we're pretty busy now so it may have to wait until the new year.

[Jason]

I would really try to get that last glow plug replaced before winter really sets in. I would also change your oil after you had all that starting stress. You may have gotten a decent amount of fuel down into the crank case.

Jason

[volvo d6]

My dad was a mechanic in the 80`s and have fixed alot on these engines and he says that if one plugg is broken will they other get broken to because they burn up because of the extra power from the broken plugg. It is like a fuse. My dad also change the glow plug behind the pump for me when i need it:D

[kevinyoung03]

You should check the fuel pipe and the hole fuel system of your car.

[Josh]

Nah, it was the glowplugs. :) starts awesomely now.

[v8volvo]

Nah, it was the glowplugs. :) starts awesomely now.

Told ya. :D

120k? It's just a baby still. If you keep good synthetic oil in it, don't overheat it, and keep up with your timing belt changes it will never die.