D24TIC starts and diest= immediately

[rado561]

Hi everyone. I ve got a problem with my 740. Today in the morning there wasn't any problem but a few hours later when i start the engine it dies immediately. When i push the gas pedal it works but when i release it it dies. If u got any idea what could cause the problem please help me.:):):)

[745 TurboGreasel]

http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1225
scroll down to air in fuel section

[v8volvo]

Is the fuel filter tight?

[rado561]

Yes its pretty tight. I changed the o rings but there is still air in the fuel. Do i have to bleed out the air? And how?

[ngoma]

Depends what tools you have available.

Any of these can help purge the air out of the fuel system:

1. Low-pressure (5-8 PSI max) electric fuel pump
2. Outboard motor type squeeze bulb fuel primer
3. Mityvac vacuum pump
4. Compressed air
5. Clean non-leaky fuel container you can attach a length of fuel hose and upend on the roof of the car

[v8volvo]

Yes its pretty tight. I changed the o rings but there is still air in the fuel. Do i have to bleed out the air? And how?

Did you just replace the O-rings, or did you change the whole filter? Did you check to make sure an old inner O-ring wasn't stuck on the filter head snout when the filter was off? Loss of seal on outer O-ring to seal is a prime source of air in fuel and an old, restricted filter makes things worse, puts more pressure on that seal. If there's an old O-ring (or two or three!) stuck up above, which is quite common, that will make it feel like the filter is screwed on tight but still prevent that outer O-ring from sealing -- or can make a weak seal that eventually backs off and starts leaking later on.

Example, http://d24t.com/showthread.php?p=6660

It sounds like you are sure there is air in the fuel. Does this mean that you are seeing visible air bubbles in the transparent fuel line between the filter and the IP when the engine is running? If so, you should be looking for air leaks at the filter or somewhere upstream from there -- most common cause is loose and/or clogged fuel filter but a bad hose or banjo connection at the filter head could also be a cause, or restricted tank pickup/leaking connections there, etc.

Based on what you've described so far, I still think your first step should be to start fresh with a brand new, high-quality filter, ensure there's no old O-ring stuck on the filter head, prefill the filter with new, clean fuel (or ATF, etc -- not fuel drained from your old filter!), and put it together and see what happens. If there are still signs of air ingress into the fuel from the filter to the IP after that, you'll need to work backwards from there and find the source. Remember that this motor does not recirculate fuel from the IP return back to the filter, it only returns to the tank, so that means if you're seeing air in the fuel while running the air leak is not from the IP but from something in the delivery system upstream from it.

On the other hand, if you're seeing good, air-free fuel flowing from filter to IP but still have symptoms of air in the system, that might point you to a leaky IP shaft seal or other air leak *downstream* of the filter. Depends what evidence you're basing your conclusion that there's air in the fuel on -- visual signs in the fuel line, or symptoms alone? Starting and quickly stalling is a fairly common symptom of loss of IP prime, e.g. from a leaking shaft seal or head seal or throttle shaft O-ring, but usually in those cases if you can get it reprimed and restarted it will continue running without struggle until it sits again. Yours sounds more like severe fuel inlet restriction or aeration.

Bleeding out the air is generally only helpful to get an engine running that won't start at all. If yours starts, it should be able to work out any other air quickly while running. And if it is still leaking air in ahead of the IP, then bleeding it out after the IP won't help much. ;) I'd be focused on finding out how the air got in (or is getting in) rather than working to get it out.

Let us know what you find -- betting it will be a simple fix. :)

[rado561]

Thanks a lot for te help! I think i solve that issue with the air in the fuel becausw there is no more bubbles in the hose but now it doesn't want to start and i think i have to change my glow plugs because they are very old. Can u tell me how to reach them because its really really hard, is there any hack or something.

[745 TurboGreasel]

Gear Wrenches for both the plug, and the little nuts, and a magnet just in case they fall a couple times.

[rado561]

Hello again. The car still dont wanna run normally.There is no air in the fuel, spark plugs are clean and it still works with a lot of vibrations and dies. Any other opinions?

[ngoma]

...spark plugs are clean...
Wait... What engine is this?:confused:

[rado561]

Wait... What engine is this?:confused:

Engine is D24TIC

[ngoma]

OK, good. The spark plugs threw me for a minute back there.

So can we can describe the problem as:

Engine starts OK, runs if given more throttle but dies at idle.

HAD air bubbles in the IP fuel feed hose but no more air bubbles, just full of liquid.

Is that correct?

One day it just happened, not related to any immediately previous adjustment or other change?

Anything else? Does it smoke? Idles rough but if you give it more fuel does it smooth out?

[rado561]

OK, good. The spark plugs threw me for a minute back there.

So can we can describe the problem as:

Engine starts OK, runs if given more throttle but dies at idle.

HAD air bubbles in the IP fuel feed hose but no more air bubbles, just full of liquid.


Is that correct?

One day it just happened, not related to any immediately previous adjustment or other change?

Anything else? Does it smoke? Idles rough but if you give it more fuel does it smooth out?
Yes there is no more air bubbles and wthen throttle works with a lot of vibrations. There wasn'any ajustment i was driving parked and a few hours later it was bad. The engine smokes in black since a lot of time. I dont know d24tic that doesnt smoke :D but it was working good pretty good.

[v8volvo]

Starting to sound like slipped timing, or MAYBE a stuck injector.

Are you able to keep it running long enough to figure out if it is just skipping on one cylinder, or if it's running poorly on all of them?

A video of what it's doing might help us a lot in understanding the symptoms you're dealing with, if you have the ability to take one and show it to us.

[rado561]

https://youtu.be/d-I4vvTsKak this is how ot works

[745 TurboGreasel]

I'd verify free fuel flow from the tank through the filter, then try with an electric lift pump.

[v8volvo]

Yeah, that still is sounding like severe fuel restriction and/or aerated fuel.

As noted above, using a low-pressure electric lift pump can identify whether it's an issue with air ingress on the supply side, as long as there's not a restriction or air leak upstream of the filter. If you put in a pump, best to put it in line BEFORE the filter, not after, since otherwise if there's still a leak at the filter head you could continue having problems.

If you can't get hold of an electric pump, a manual primer bulb and an external fuel can elevated above the height of the IP can do the job as well, you can run it off that and see if the symptoms change.

I had one once where an injector stuck open and was letting compression get pushed through back into the IP, filling it with air, and did some similar things. Confirm there are no problems in the IP's fuel supply before exploring this though.

Did you refill the fuel tank shortly before this started happening?

Where are you located?

[rado561]

yes that happened after i filled it up. I am from Europe Bulgaria. Here there is Euro standard but the fuel is terrible even in gas stations like shell.
Thats why i think its possible to be stucked injector.

[ngoma]

Water in fuel? Does your fuel filter have a drain valve on the bottom? Can you drain some fuel from the bottom of the fuel filter into a clear jar to check for water?

[rado561]

Hi everyone again. Thanks a lot for suggestions. I finallu found an electric pump i connected it before the filter but it doesn't work again.I think that the last option is stucked injector.I dont know what else it could be.

[v8volvo]

Did you try checking for water in the fuel, as ngoma suggested?

The fact that the symptoms began immediately after refilling the fuel tank is extremely important. You should use that as a huge clue.

Before you start taking the engine apart and replacing injectors, you NEED to confirm that the engine has a steady source of high quality, clean diesel fuel with NO air or water or gasoline in it and free fuel flow with no restrictions. The way your engine started and ran in the video you took strongly suggests major fuel restriction and/or air in the fuel and/or fuel quality issues.

A stuck injector letting compression burp into the fuel pump is a small possibility, but it is DEFINITELY NOT the first thing to investigate.

Personally, I would STRONGLY suggest getting an external fuel supply (i.e. a gas can filled with fresh, clean diesel fuel from a known good fuel source) hooked up before the filter, install a NEW fuel filter dry with no fuel in it (making sure the old filter O-rings are removed and the new O-rings are in proper position and lubricated and the filter seats and screws on tight), and, using your electric fuel pump, prime the new filter with fuel from the external can. (Loosen the bleeder screw in the filter head, energize the pump, then tighten the screw when fuel comes running out with no air in it.)
Then, let the electric pump continue running, loosen all six fuel injector unions, and crank the engine until you get a good squirt of good-smelling diesel fuel out of each injector union.
Then, tighten the injector connections and start the engine. Try to keep it running for a while to ensure it is only running on the fresh fuel from your external supply. See how it runs.

If it still runs poorly after doing all this, THEN your next step will be to investigate other possibilities. Candidates would include a stuck fuel injector or, also possible, slipped injection pump timing, or others. But if the engine is running on a contaminated or otherwise compromised fuel source, you can go on forever replacing other parts and it will still never be right. First you have to rule out any chance of trouble there, then move on to other areas.

[rado561]

Did you try checking for water in the fuel, as ngoma suggested?

The fact that the symptoms began immediately after refilling the fuel tank is extremely important. You should use that as a huge clue.

Before you start taking the engine apart and replacing injectors, you NEED to confirm that the engine has a steady source of high quality, clean diesel fuel with NO air or water or gasoline in it and free fuel flow with no restrictions. The way your engine started and ran in the video you took strongly suggests major fuel restriction and/or air in the fuel and/or fuel quality issues.

A stuck injector letting compression burp into the fuel pump is a small possibility, but it is DEFINITELY NOT the first thing to investigate.

Personally, I would STRONGLY suggest getting an external fuel supply (i.e. a gas can filled with fresh, clean diesel fuel from a known good fuel source) hooked up before the filter, install a NEW fuel filter dry with no fuel in it (making sure the old filter O-rings are removed and the new O-rings are in proper position and lubricated and the filter seats and screws on tight), and, using your electric fuel pump, prime the new filter with fuel from the external can. (Loosen the bleeder screw in the filter head, energize the pump, then tighten the screw when fuel comes running out with no air in it.)
Then, let the electric pump continue running, loosen all six fuel injector unions, and crank the engine until you get a good squirt of good-smelling diesel fuel out of each injector union.
Then, tighten the injector connections and start the engine. Try to keep it running for a while to ensure it is only running on the fresh fuel from your external supply. See how it runs.

If it still runs poorly after doing all this, THEN your next step will be to investigate other possibilities. Candidates would include a stuck fuel injector or, also possible, slipped injection pump timing, or others. But if the engine is running on a contaminated or otherwise compromised fuel source, you can go on forever replacing other parts and it will still never be right. First you have to rule out any chance of trouble there, then move on to other areas.
Thanks for the advice i tried that today but it still works badly.

[v8volvo]

Thanks for the advice i tried that today but it still works badly.

OK, so you went through each one of those things, step by step? Used an external fuel can, electric fuel pump, new fuel filter, bled the fuel lines, and everything else, and it still ran exactly the same?

If you feel 110% certain that you have ruled out the possibility of fuel supply problems, and the injection pump is getting nothing but perfectly clean, high-quality fuel under positive pressure with no contamination or air in it, then you should go ahead and investigate other possibilities.

It sounds like what you really want to do is throw a set of injectors at it. That's OK as something to try; the only problem is that it's a very expensive test (in other words, if you haven't fully checked out other possibilities, there's a solid chance that new injectors will make no difference in the engine's problem). As long as you are prepared for the possibility of spending hundreds of dollars and potentially not fixing the problem, you may as well go ahead. If new injectors do fix it, then that's great, and if they don't, then new injectors are never a bad thing anyway -- yours likely have many miles on them and would benefit from a refresh.

The alternative is to continue working through diagnostic steps before spending money on new parts. If you have a hunch that it has a stuck injector, you can try to identify that injector by opening injector connections one by one with the engine running (in your case you might need need a helper to keep their foot on the accelerator and keep the engine running long enough to do this). Stay back from the high-pressure spray, but as you crack open each injector connection with your 17mm wrench, you should hear/feel that cylinder quit firing and see a nice squirt of fuel out of the loosened connection. If there is an injector stuck open, then when you get to that one, what you'll see instead is a bunch of foam coming out and no effect on the engine's operation with the injector disabled.

If you do that test and find one or more injectors that show signs of malfunction, then you've located your issue. But if not, then the likelihood of getting good results from buying a set of new injectors is very low.

FWIW: the only times I've ever seen an injector stick were in situations where an engine had sat for many, many years or where injectors had just been installed and a piece of contamination had gotten into an open union. Very unusual for them to just suddenly stick during regular operation, with no provocation.

[ngoma]

new injectors are never a bad thing anyway...
Been hearing about subpar quality on some new injectors (made in India?). If so, the old injectors might be better. Especially after a clean/reset. Especially especially after a clean/new nozzles (Monark)/reset.

[v8volvo]

Been hearing about subpar quality on some new injectors (made in India?). If so, the old injectors might be better. Especially after a clean/reset. Especially especially after a clean/new nozzles (Monark)/reset.

Good point. Even more reason to only go down the path of injector repair/refresh/replacement IF you pinpoint them as a definite problem area through a proper linear diagnostic process, no?

[ngoma]

Yes, systematic troubleshooting procedures can minimize frustration, wasted time, and money.

Your suggestion for the next step (loosening the injector union nuts one-by-one and watching/listening for diminished idle or non-affected idle) was a good one, good call!

rado561 when you perform this test try to keep fuel from dripping or spraying on the coolant hoses.

[v8volvo]

suggestion for the next step (loosening the injector union nuts one-by-one and watching/listening for diminished idle or non-affected idle) was a good one, good call!

Assuming the engine is able to keep running long enough and steadily enough to get any results from it -- based on the way we have seen it run, that may be challenging. :o

I'm still thinking either a fuel delivery or quality issue, if those haven't been fully checked out, or slipped timing as the second place candidate, then injector issues as least likely. Perhaps we should establish a forum pool and start taking bets? :D

[rado561]

hi everyone again. After a month i found the solution FINALLY! I found one more copper o ring and replaced it after uninstalling the IP. Also uninstalled all of the injectors and cleaned them with a needle and toothbrush. Installed all of the parts a little set and its running good! Thank everybody for help!

[ngoma]

Thanks for the update. If you could describe which o-ring it was that was causing all the problem maybe that could help someone in the future who finds this page.:)

[rado561]

on this picture its not exactly the same pump put that is the o ring https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8-b9CLwgj71NzRYTHpWZnlPMFk&authuser=0
I hope its going to help!