85 740 won't start

[morgan1227]

Well I revived an old 85 740 TD that had been sitting in the desert sun for years. It started a few times and ran good, then would not start. I could re-fill the IP from the bleed screw and get it to start up. But then it started stalling, back in the garage, that's a safety issue, esp with a teen driver.

It had a new IP installed when the engine was rebuilt, but it has been sitting for 4-5 years. I put in clear fuel lines and verified no air tank to fiilter. But I noticed that when it stalled, air came from the pump BACK toward the filter housing. So I figured maybe a leaky shaft seal. I had someone pull the IP for me (it was a bear). Now it is out of the car. What should do while it is out? I have a new shaft seal. Other seals? Where can I get them, it is a Bosch VE1394L-1 pump. Replace glow plugs 5 & 6? Clean all injectors? Get the pump bench tested? Anything else? thanks, Bill in AZ

[ngoma]

I put in clear fuel lines and verified no air tank to fiilter.
Good start (no pun intended). Just as important: What did you see from the IP return line?

But I noticed that when it stalled, air came from the pump BACK toward the filter housing. So I figured maybe a leaky shaft seal.
Yes, that is a good guess, other than that it could be a loose (fuel supply) hose connection somewhere between the IP body and fuel filter. Don't forget the somewhat common occurrance of an extra of the (small) rubber square-cut sealing o-ring between the fuel filter and its housing.

I have a new shaft seal. Other seals? Where can I get them, it is a Bosch VE1394L-1 pump. Replace glow plugs 5 & 6? Clean all injectors? Get the pump bench tested? Anything else? thanks, Bill in AZSince you already have it, might as well install the new shaft seal. Take care not to scratch the shaft itself. AND careful removing the cogged pulley for access. Don't let it fly off the shaft, hit the ground and crack off a piece! Was the IP leaking fuel from anywhere? You can get the seal kit easily from a local Bosch distributor, they can get most any part if you give them the numbers on the side of the IP.

Also, since the IP is out, now is the time to replace GPs #5 and 6. Then test the old ones and keep them for spares if they check OK. Test the other 4 now also, just to verify they are not part of your problem.

From your supplied list of symptoms, it doesn't look like injector problems (yet).

Now, the million dollar question: How are you going to time it after replacing the IP?

WAIT! Is this the same car as from this post:
Intermittent failure to start (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1128)

And/or this one?
Hi from Arizona - trying to bring one back (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=989)

And/or this one?
bubbling injector (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1089)

Maybe even post #6 from this thread?
Replaced the Fuel Filter, now it wont start (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1009)

Sorry, now I'm just confused :confused:

[morgan1227]

Unfortunately I did not put a clear hose on the return line.

No loose connections or extra o-ring on the filter, checked those.

The cogged pulley was already cracked! Looks like that happened to someone in the past, I have a new one on order.

I have the shaft seal now, any other seals that should be changed now that the pump is out? I thought I read on here that there are three external seals that can leak. I really don't want to tear the pump apart, it looks like a pain.

I was going to time it using the green book and you experts!

Yes this is same car from the other posts - those were all issues I had getting the car started initially (all solved except now this).

[745 TurboGreasel]

Does the shaft have play in the direction of belt pull? If the belt was too tight, the bushing wears.

Mark alignment, and pull one of the arms off the side of the pump, then the washer. behind that will be an oring. gently pick it out.
If that oring is anything but plump round and supple, you need to reseal the pump, otherwise put it back(lube with a dab of vaseline/assembly lube) and hope for the best.

I feel left out, my pulleys only seem to dent or bend, never had one crack.

[morgan1227]

No play in the shaft.

Sorry What do you mean by an arm?

[745 TurboGreasel]

Cold start or emergency stop lever, the throttle one is behind a bunch more stuff is why I suggest one of the other two..

[morgan1227]

pulled the cold stop arm, checked the o-ring. actually looked good, so back in and I have a new pulley just arrived.

What about changing the fuel valve while I have it out? Also I changed all the copper crush washers on all the banjo fittings already before pulling the pump. Do I need new ones each time? thanks

[745 TurboGreasel]

I just re anneal them if they leak.

Fuel valve won't likely trouble unless there is debris in the pump.

[ngoma]

Looks like you are getting ready to replace the IP mainshaft seal? These NEVER come out without a major struggle! Do yourself a favor and get the Lisle 58430 tool. Seriously could save you a couple of hours.

Did you verify the seal is leaking?

[morgan1227]

TG, do you just use a torch to anneal the copper washers? how do you know when you have them hot enough, color? The valve is really hard to get at when installed, that is why I wondered about switching it.

NG, about that shaft seal... Let's just say I should have consulted the board before getting into that one. I would up destroying it getting it out, not mention some damage to the surface behind it. But the good news is that I didn't damage the shaft! And I have a new one ready to go, along with a little JB weld for the housing.

This weekend I'm going to attempt to put everything back together, so...

[745 TurboGreasel]

I have a a gas stove in the kitchen that seems to work well. Just as they start to glow is plenty.

I bet compressed air on the 'in ' line would shoot that seal across the room. The rest are rated for 100+ PSI.

[ngoma]

I bet compressed air on the 'in ' line would shoot that seal across the room. The rest are rated for 100+ PSI.
The mainshaft seal? Somebody should try this!

[morgan1227]

how important is it to replace the heat shields when cleaning injectors? the green book says to do this.

[ngoma]

Heatshield seals injector nozzle face to cylinder head by way of getting deformed (compressed) between the two during installation. Also allows heat transfer from nozzle end to head (which itself is cooled by circulating coolant). Compare a used one to a new one and you will see the extended inner section on the new one is compressed flush with the outer section on the used one.

As such, heatshield is a one-shot deal, not likely to seal as well on second use.

Don't make your problems worse!

Theoretically there is a way to re-form them using a ball bearing and visegrip pliers with a welded-on flange. Anyone here tried that?

[morgan1227]

I can see how they are flattened out. I found a thread on a VW site that had some nice clear pictures of new and used ones.

It looks like these may have been reused in this car before as there is a buildup of soot on the injector threads. Is it necessary to clean this out? I don't want to risk having that debris get into the engine. What makes a good plug?

[745 TurboGreasel]

Clean it, and the seat face. If the seat t face gets eroded away, the head is pooched.
I've cut teeth on an old heat shield to clean bad ones.

[morgan1227]

So I found tiny rubber plug and am proceeding to clean out the injector threads and cylinder areas. What a dream to work on the back injectors and glow plugs without the pump in!

I tried the ball bearing thing to re-form the heat shields using a little arbor press, it seems to be working!

I am hesitant to put the pump back in without testing it somehow. Was it in this forum where someone said if you turn pump shift with a drill, fuel will shoot out the manifold "like a machine gun"? I couln't find it. Do I just run the 'IN" line to a fuel can and turn the shaft with a power drill?

[morgan1227]

OK I just discovered something that really threw me. Injectors 5 and 6 have really small (~3/16") hole in the block under where the heat shield sits. #4 has a gaping (~1/2") hole ! I can see the glow plug tip! What gives?

[745 TurboGreasel]

(~3/16") hole
carbon, or there is another heat shield lurking under there?

if there is any erosion of your heat shield faces, don't reuse them.

You need a bad boy drill to even turn it, and the result still won't mean much. Pressure test 15-20 PSI if anything.

[morgan1227]

not carbon or another heat shield, but definitely a metallic washer under where the cylinder head decreases in diameter. I took a nice pic showing #4 and #5 with injectors pulled. How can I post pictures?

BTW I found new heat shields at O'Reilly's, special order but next day to store. Surprising. Parts are typically hard to come by out here in the SW.

[ngoma]

How can I post pictures?
http://d24t.com/showpost.php?p=8450&postcount=3

[morgan1227]

Update: Bad news from the diesel shop. Took the injector pump in for them to inspect, they want $750 to rebuild it. Metal filings in feed pump. Even with as much time as I have in the car, I don't know if I can stomach dropping that much, and don't think I am up for rebuilding it myself. Any thoughts?

[ngoma]

"Metal filings in feed pump" could be caused by running with a clogged fuel filter. Feed pump struggles for fuel, which also helps lubricate it, and destroys itself and other parts downstream, sending the eroded metal bits downstream.

[morgan1227]

I cant speak for what happened in the many years before I had it, but when I bought it I was told
1. it had sat for a while 4-5 years, maybe more, and
2. it had a new(rebuilt) pump.

So I removed, emptied, and (maniacally) scrubbed the inside of the fuel tank, ran gasoline and seafoam through the metal fuel lines, changed the filter (twice I think) and have only driven it 30 miles or so. But obviously it was being starved of fuel somehow though, because it would not start after a few good starts and runs, then eventually it started stalling.

[ngoma]

Gasoline in the IP could do it in.

[morgan1227]

I had the pump rebuilt and it is back in the car. I am installing the timing gear now and need the tool that keeps the pump from turning when torquing the nut (5193 I think). Does anyone have a drawing or dimensions, I have access to a machine shop to make one.

[745 TurboGreasel]

About a 7/16 deep socket.

[ngoma]

I had the pump rebuilt and it is back in the car.
Did the shop have any information for you about the failure mode?

[morgan1227]

7/16 deep socket will work like a charm IF I can fit it between the gear and the firewall. There is just no room to do the work. What about torquing? I dont see how I can fit a big torque wrench anywhere. Of course the book shows torquing it off the car, but I didn't see a way to install the bracket bolts to the block once the pump was attached.

Unfortuantely I was traveling for work, so the wife picked up the pump from the shop. I will call them later this week and see if they have any info on the cause of failure.

[ngoma]

I dont see how I can fit a big torque wrench anywhere..
This is where D24 Special Tools come in handy. You need the 17mm - 1/2" square drive dogleg wrench!:D
411
It hugs the rear of the IP pulley then bends toward the front, clearing the firewall. Torque wrench can insert from the front.
See sticky D24 Special Tools (http://d24t.com/showthread.php?t=1299) for reference.


I didn't see a way to install the bracket bolts to the block once the pump was attached.
I did this once from below, after removing the fuel filter housing. A little tricky getting the bolt started but not too bad overall!

[745 TurboGreasel]

7/16 deep socket will work like a charm IF I can fit it between the gear and the firewall. There is just no room to do the work. What about torquing? I dont see how I can fit a big torque wrench anywhere. Of course the book shows torquing it off the car, but I didn't see a way to install the bracket bolts to the block once the pump was attached.


Tranny mount shot? undo it and jack the tranny till it touches the tunnel, there will be a bunch more room.
I did this once from below, after removing the fuel filter housing. A little tricky getting the bolt started but not too bad overall!Not too bad with a gearwrench and a stubby.

[morgan1227]

OK figured the mounting out. Now on to the timing. Is there reason I can't just use a magnetic base for the dial indicator, rather than the special adapters that thread into the pump?

[morgan1227]

well i guess i can use the mag base because it seems to be working. any tricks for installing the rear timing belt without removing the cam sprocket? thanks

[ngoma]

OK, Thanks, good to know.

IP belt replacement w/o removing camshaft pulley? Preferred method for timing IP calls for loosening the camshaft pulley to rotate it on the camshaft. That's at least halfway towards removing the pulley (to R/R the belt).

But I guess you could try loosening the IP mounting bracket bolts to the block, and raising the IP/mount to slacken the belt enough to remove it. Probably a good idea to at least recheck the timing after retensioning.

[morgan1227]

I was hoping to not have to loosen the rear cam sprocket as I don't have the holding tool. I have read through several posts regarding IP timing, and am having some issues.

to summarize:
- I removed the IP and had it rebuilt at a local shop
- I have re-installed it and am attempting to time it
- I have installed a dial indicator with a 6" extension. I am using a mag base to the pump bracket. I did not pull the vacuum pump, but it sounds like that is the easiest way to verify the engine is at #1 TDC.

Questions:
- When I rotate the pump thru a full turn, I only get .06 (1.5mm) total travel. Is that enough? (I am right in the middle of my indicator, and it has an inch of travel)
- As I rotate the pump toward its 'high point', it becomes difficult to rotate, then it 'releases' to a 'low' spot. In fact it is hard to keep the initial alignment with the marks on the bracket. Is that normal?
- Following the green book, I align, back off to find zero, then align and lock. I read .023 (.58 mm). Too low, correct? Then what? The book says to install the belt and loosen the cam sprocket and rotate to the desired setting, but how if the pump is locked at this point?

Sorry for all the basic questions, but this is new to me and I'm trying to get this done for my daughter before school starts. Thanks! Bill in AZ

[745 TurboGreasel]

I was hoping to not have to loosen the rear cam sprocket as I don't have the holding tool. I have read through several posts regarding IP timing, and am having some issues.

to summarize:
- I removed the IP and had it rebuilt at a local shop
- I have re-installed it and am attempting to time it
- I have installed a dial indicator with a 6" extension. I am using a mag base to the pump bracket. I did not pull the vacuum pump, but it sounds like that is the easiest way to verify the engine is at #1 TDC.
Pull the valve cover, you can both verify the cam is in' tits up' position, and hold the cam to loosen that bolt

Questions:
- When I rotate the pump thru a full turn, I only get .06 (1.5mm) total travel. Is that enough? (I am right in the middle of my indicator, and it has an inch of travel)The ramps on the camplate are not ral big, but that seems maybe a bit low to me?

- As I rotate the pump toward its 'high point', it becomes difficult to rotate, then it 'releases' to a 'low' spot. In fact it is hard to keep the initial alignment with the marks on the bracket. Is that normal?
Yes, there are heavy springs in there.
- Following the green book, I align, back off to find zero, then align and lock. I read .023 (.58 mm). Too low, correct? Then what? The book says to install the belt and loosen the cam sprocket and rotate to the desired setting, but how if the pump is locked at this point?
Not enough. You either lock the pump pulley and rotate the housing orlock the housing and rotate the cam pulley.

Sorry for all the basic questions, but this is new to me and I'm trying to get this done for my daughter before school starts. Thanks! Bill in AZ
Done valve adjustment?

[morgan1227]

Done valve adjustment?

No, the engine was professionally rebuilt before I bought it and I assumed that everything was adjusted. Bad move? It ran pretty smooth once I got it running, but it started stalling, and by process of elimination we decided the pump needed to be rebuilt.

Since it sat for a while in the sun, I have changed a lot of the gaskets including the VC. If I pull it to check the cams, do I need to replace the gasket again?

[745 TurboGreasel]

Most professionals working on these engines, or even a regular VW diesel have no idea what they are trying to do. that's before they try to do something cheaper, faster, or easier. Mainly it's easiest to check when you already have the lid off.

The 1 piece gaskets are pretty reusable, the cork ones just suck.

[morgan1227]

ok pulled the VCG and checked the valves. Turns out I was 180 out for #1 TDC ha ha. All valve clearances came in around .009 intake and .017 exhaust, so it looks like they were set properly. And yes I had purchased the cork gasket.

I finally got the pump timed. I locked the pump pulley and rotated the housing until I get .035". It was here where the correct 5194 tool is better than the mag base because it is hard not to disrupt the indicator when loosening one of the pump mounting bolts, I had to re-zero a few times.

Tomorrow I will start to connect everything and then we can see if it worked!

thanks so much for the help.

[745 TurboGreasel]

Tomorrow I will start to connect everything and then we can see if it worked!



If there is blood on the car, it will work:D

[morgan1227]

My homemade cam sprocket holder tool worked great.

I am now reconnecting the fuel delivery pipes. The shop that pulled the pump did not mark which line from the manifold went to which injector and I can't find any info or pics. Looking at one of the diagrams from the parts book, it appears that looking at the pump from the front, starting from 1:00 and going clockwise, it looks like 1-5-3-2-6-4 but I'm not 100% sure.

[745 TurboGreasel]

None will fit in the wrong spot, and the little antivibration clips leave a witness mark....don't lose those.

[v8volvo]

it looks like 1-5-3-2-6-4 but I'm not 100% sure.

1-5-3-6-2-4

FWIW much easier to time it by moving the rear cam sprocket in relation to the cam rather than repositioning the IP, but if you got it timed, then all's well that ends well, just FYI for next time around. :cool:

You can remove all the fuel lines as a set too -- another way to save some future hassle, though not a helpful tip at the present moment while you're trying to sort out the jumble of pipes. :p Like 745 said, there is only one right way to do it, you can figure it out by trial and error if you have to. The #1 connection is the one you identified, uppermost outer union, 1:00 if your perspective is from the front of the car looking at the pump head. Make sure you do get all three of those vibration clamps back on there, if it seems like they won't fit, mess with it until they do -- the hard lines don't like living without them and they will make that fact known to you in short order.

And, of course, make sure everything is surgically clean before you put those fuel lines on there, it doesn't take much to stick an injector. Especially if they have been sitting off the car somewhere for a while, brake cleaner or compressed air is your friend here...

[morgan1227]

I guess I didn't get the cam sprocket bolt tightened enough, so I lost timing and it ran poorly on startup (white smoke, rough idle), so I timed it again using the turn the cam sprocket approach, and made a tool to ensure that it was torqued to spec this time.

I also removed the vacuum pump this time, made the job much easier. On an earlier removal, someone had just used silicone gasket goo, instead of the volvo sealing ring(1328593). Is that OK to do again, or should I try to obtain the ring?

Also, the vacuum push rod fell out (of course) as I removed the pump. I remember someone saying that it matters which way it goes in, but it sure looks symmetric to me. Should I take it work and have them put it on the CMM (measures accurately to .0002")? What would we be looking for?

[ngoma]

I also removed the vacuum pump this time, made the job much easier. On an earlier removal, someone had just used silicone gasket goo, instead of the volvo sealing ring(1328593). Is that OK to do again, or should I try to obtain the ring?
Dunno? Was is leaking with the gasket goo?

Also, the vacuum push rod fell out (of course) as I removed the pump. I remember someone saying that it matters which way it goes in, but it sure looks symmetric to me. Should I take it work and have them put it on the CMM (measures accurately to .0002")? What would we be looking for?
Look carefully at the surface of the end(s). Do they look the same, or is one end more shiny, maybe with concentric rings?