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View Full Version : Meet Ronald Reagan my 244 D24!


happycamper
11-03-2013, 02:43 PM
Hey everyone I am brand new to the site but been browsing it a few months now since i got my '84 244 D24 this spring...

My name is Ross I am located near Corvallis, OR and I see there are a few of you from not too far away! So I just got 'Ronald Reagan' (PO named him but it stuck!) this spring... the female PO lived on campus found the ad on CL for a non-running D24... anyways totally lucked out the thing had a couple leaking injector lines... found a mercedes diesel at pick apart and snagged couple lines off it and bent to fit and drove Ronald home!! for $600 (on payments too she was cool.... and cute!) Had about 178K on him then and sitting with 183k now..

Anyways don't need to draw this out too long sure you guys are gonna wanna see pics too... anyways long story short Ronald died in the middle of summer and I was workin 12 hour days so started driving my '70 westy project (only 20k on engine :) Been driving Felix now for a few months and finally the wetness is here and the farm work has slowed to a relaxed pace... giving me time to deal with Ronald finally!! My daily driver and project need to switch roles again soon... (felix needs new canvas for his pop top)

Currently cleaning garage space so I can start working on him this week and I am sure I will be asking a lot of questions once I dive in. This is my first diesel car but I am a farmer and have worked around diesel engines over the last few years but am by no means an expert! So what happened you're wondering...

Well after driving for a month or so was having starting issues... bypassed temp control so i had manual toggle to activate glow plug relay... didn't help. Replaced all glow plugs and this helped a little...

but then it got impossible to start (cold start thermostat maybe?) so i started using Ether... every day... :( needless to say he stopped starting with ether after a month or so of that... I have since been reading more about these engines and learning a lot... like to never use ether on these engines!! Also learned of the necessary frequent valve adjustments (which I never did and doubt female PO student did either) must be a VW thing LOL!

Before the starting issues there was considerable blow-by and he burned a quart of oil every 500 miles or less. Always smoked when started and I would let run in driveway till it cleared and drive all day without smoke. Always ran smooth! (But slow :)

So I will keep posting as I make progress... first thing is valve adjustment hopin to get really lucky here!!!! I am open to any and all suggestions before I dive in but please don't bash me too hard I know I abused this thing I am a noob! And I may be willing to sell if I hit a road block so your kindness may come back around if your in the market for a D24 but I really want to get this thing back on the road at any expense short of a trip to the machine shop!! The car is in great shape otherwise...

RedArrow
11-03-2013, 04:25 PM
Cast that can far away into the farthest corner of your garage!

PLEASE PLEASE stay away from starter fluids!!
745 TurboGreasel says it should be `installed in my trash can`. :)
I say `being with a nice lady of your choice, Vi@gra is not needed AND it should never* be used at all` .

Replace the fuel filter immediately (dont forget to FIND&remove that old O-ring!), try running the car from a jar (CLEAN diesel) to see if it can handle it. Check for air in fuel and bleed system *completely if necessary, check your glow plugs! Many other things to blame but these came into my mind first. Deal with 1 issue at a time/first; I wouldn`t touch the valves yet!

About the motor oil consumption: ``1 qt in 500 miles (or less)`` is a LOT i think! Check for oil in your coolant (at expansion tank).

Lucky find, a nice Volvo, hopefully a survivor. You were constantly flushing your cylinder walls with that cr@p. :)
(((Just to make thinking about solving your hard-start/no-start problem much easier, let`s assume for now that 1, your injection pump does work perfectly and 2, there IS compression in your engine (although low compr itself shouldn`t cause you hard starting) AND 3, your glow plugs (or at least 4 of them) work correctly +the relay (doublecheck YOUR manual-toggle-glow setup)...
then...
-especially IF you have/had *any diesel fuel leak/leaks anywhere-, I`d say you have air introduced into the fuel system... so now you have to get clean fuel into the system, a brand new (good quality) filter, maybe a hand-pump (or electric fuel pump) prior* the filter and bleed the whole thing as a start. Get a strong battery too. While bleeding and cranking a lot, you can/should disconnect the glow plugs just to be on the safe side. You`ll only need them later when clean fuel does get everywhere where it needs to get. You can use diesel purge Lubro Molly instead of diesel fuel just to boost things up a bit. Watch out with dirty fuel, also, do not let anything get into the fuel supply. )))
You are very lucky, many Volvo Dieselers live around you!! Professional help is coming very soon! I hope you don`t mind that I just shared my `first opinion` on your problem.
PS. Check again those home-made Mercedes-to-Volvo injector lines.
PS2. Did you ever take out injectors? (sensitive parts, proper installation needed there; that can be another source of your dieseling troubles)
PS3. If someone PRO from here the d24t forum could check the timing...
PS4. It`s scary (even to talk about it) but you can check your belts. The timing belt in the front is under a cover. Inspect it. It should not be off or extremely loose. The rear belt at the firewall should NOT be too tight and should have no teeth missing. Confirm that.

happycamper
11-03-2013, 10:06 PM
Hey Mr Arrow thank you for all the prompt advice! Do I really need to go thru the trouble of bleeding the fuel system again? Well actually think i did that anyways but been parked a couple months now. I put a new napa filter on it when I got it and the one I replaced looked very clean inside. Put about 5k miles on it I think the filter should be pretty darn clean still. I know when I was last trying to start I cracked every line again to make sure there was good fuel pressure to each injector.

So I'm not thinking air in lines or filter or pump...

Never pulled any injectors I have never done this before but am not afraid to either... any advice on how to test these?

Front timing belt looks like it is due for replacement but not loose but looks a lot softer on the edges than the rear one. Do I need a special tool to replace this myself?

The engine seemed to be producing a lot of carbon deposits, soot, black shit on the intake side for some reason like when I put new air filter in it when I first started driving (before using ether) the old filter was black on engine side...?

ngoma
11-03-2013, 10:55 PM
Welcome to D24T.com.

Starting these engines requires:

1. Good cranking speed-- strong battery/starter.
2. Good compression.
3. Good GPs, all 6.
4. Good fuel pressure, no air.

Are you sure the GPs are getting energized during your starting attempts? If the ether hits hot GPs then you got problems (cracked rings, etc.) but if the GPs are not getting juice then it might not turn out to be so catastrophic. But try to stop using the ether.

Trying to think of what might be causing the starting degradation. Did it slowly degrade or was it like all of a sudden? You said a month but that was not enough detail. Timing should not have changed by itself. GPs you can easily visually check for sound wiring, and check for sufficient voltage (11VDC) at the GP bussbar.

Low compression itself obviously can impair starting ability. Your "considerable blow-by and he burned a quart of oil every 500 miles or less" could indicate worn oil control rings, and possibly worn compression rings/cylinder wear. You could check compression after checking valve clearances, but I haven't seen where these engines need all that much valve adjustments.

Leaky IP shaft seal can cause difficult or impossible starting by allowing air to enter the IP. It won't always signal a failure by leaking fuel out, so the way to check is to splice a temporary clear fuel hose at the IP out (fuel return) to verify no air bubbles. Wouldn't hurt to verify no bubbles at the IP fuel in port, the fuel line at the IP in port should be (somewhat) clear.

Did the PO have records of timing belt replacement? If not, don't gamble; replace it. Interference engine! Requires specialty tools and knowledge.

Where were the orig. injector lines leaking? Monitor your "new" ones closely; they don't like (re-) bending or vibration (that's the reason for the clamps), and are subject to failure after trauma. The engine also doesn't like them to be different lengths.

745 TurboGreasel
11-04-2013, 02:44 AM
I have used a ton of ether, but I'm trying to recover.
Really the only thing so far was a backfire once blew up my air filter housing. Cracked it so bad I had to get another one.
2 things, 1 as mentioned, ether + glow = bang
2 most people use way too much. if it knocks and kicks back, you used 2+ times more than you need.
Our IDI Ford dump ha started on ether for 6 years or so. While cranking, I spray ONE PUFF across not into the intake tube.

Fuel filter life is a big ? if you don't know what the POs burned for fuel. I have only see one or two that wold clog in less than 30 miles.

My first step wold be to swap the fuel lines coming off the fender with transparent plastic tube from the hardware store. Then you can be sure fuel is flowing, and see if supply, return. or both have air.
Then I'd verify the shutoff solenoid gets power, then I'd go with an external fuel supply.

Fast test on the glow plugs- take a jumper cable from battery + to the buss bar. if it doesn't spark, all 6 are toast. You can undo the little U wire under the vacuum pump to test in sets of 3.

If you've got a stick, pull starting is always an option, though I did rip my front tow hook in half with a Dodge. better to drag in gear and ease into it..

happycamper
11-04-2013, 06:46 AM
Once again all 6 glow plugs are brand new (less than 3k miles) and they are getting voltage for sure. Have toggle on dash that activates relay which is audible, and have tested the bus bar for voltage.

I like the clear fuel line idea... yeah fuel solenoid is getting voltage and presumably working correctly due to fuel pressure at all cylinders, correct? Still dont know anything about injectors themselves tho...

Again its been a couple months since trying to start... today i'll get him in the garage and give another go before looking at valves. I'm really leaning towards rings unfortunately but trying to eliminate all other possibilities first.

I do remember getting some ignition in at least a couple cylinders when trying to start on ether before... Just wouldnt catch only a little noise per revolution...If I can figure my crappy camera out might make a video for you guys (stepped on the iphone, Doh!) And thanks everyone this is awesome to have some support while wading into the unknown here!!!

ngoma
11-04-2013, 09:53 AM
Once again all 6 glow plugs are brand new (less than 3k miles)
Well OK but is that (less than 3k miles) subject to ether? Not saying yours are toast but ether has been known to blast the GPs pretty good.

If you are getting spurts of fuel out of the injector line ends during cranking then we can say your fuel cutoff solenoid is working.

Next test is clear fuel line at the IP in/outs.

happycamper
11-04-2013, 10:09 AM
Yes glow plugs were getting ether daily for at least a month... didn't realize it could fry them that quick!!

745 TurboGreasel
11-04-2013, 12:49 PM
very much so. that's why I suggest testing load from that rather than their supply.

When I start my bench engine, I hold a jumper to the glow wire and count to 12, drop that and hit the starter. It fires right up. No need for fancy electronics.

v8volvo
11-04-2013, 05:08 PM
You can also get an idea of plugs' condition testing with an ohmmeter or test light. Good plug will have relatively low resistance to ground, dead plug will be open. Usually this is an accurate test although not always, however, gives you some idea at least. Only trouble is that you have to detach the bus bar from all 6 plugs in order to test accurately, with them all hooked up this test only tells you whether or not they are *all* dead.

Or, if you have access to an ammeter with fairly high current capacity, you can check current thru the supply wire from the GP relay and get a pretty close idea of how many plugs are working and how many are dead (though you won't know which ones are which). Each plug will draw about 12 amps after a couple seconds. Fully functioning system should give you 72 amps, getting 48 amps means only 4 are live, 24 amps means 2, etc, etc. A little inductive meter that you hold next to the cable (e.g. the type sold for checking alternator charging current or starter draw) works reasonably well for this.

I pulled some plugs out of a 6.9L Ford once that was getting ether every morning. The tips had exploded. Pretty violent event when that stuff goes off and if the plugs are hot at the time, it's not good. A last idea would be to pull out a few of the easily accessible plugs on your motor (cyls 1-4). Appearance of what comes out of there might give you some clues as to what's keeping it from lighting off.

happycamper
11-08-2013, 01:31 PM
Ya don't see this everyday! Not recommended for highway travel LOL getting Ronald in the garage finally... took almost a week to make room it was near hoarder status... More pics shortly I'm gonna go fetch some clear fuel line and rob the new battery my dad got for his tractor and start crankin on it again ;)

RedArrow
11-08-2013, 07:39 PM
More pics shortly I'm gonna go fetch some clear fuel line and rob the new battery my dad got for his tractor and start crankin on it again ;)

We want videos! :)

happycamper
11-09-2013, 11:35 AM
Ok so I have made some progress. Installed new napa gold fuel filter and clear lines between filter and fuel send line and between pump return and return hard line. Didnt want to cut off line that goes between pump input and filter and didn't think that was what i was told to do anyways...

I bled the air out of filter up to pump then cranked until i had fuel to all injectors and tightened lines down. Verified I had voltage to glow plug bus bar when relay is activated... however multimeter is MIA so unable to perform voltage drop test (little brother swears he doesn't have it but I know I loaned it to him!)

Proceeded to try and start engine with not a puff or a clack and I swear this thing turns way to easy for a diesel... low compression? Spinning plenty fast enough battery is new and big.

So I have been curious of valve clearances and bought valve cover gasket to address this (and the oil leaking out) a few months ago so I removed valve cover and checked my clearances and everything looked pretty good. had one intake valve at like .014" but this is barely out of spec didn't think it should be affecting her too much so put new gasket on and sealed back up.

So back to the glow plugs... Pulled em all out. Covered in diesel and some sludge. Don't look like they have heated for a while. So I get a jumper wire and manually test them individually directly to battery. All 6 are toast. So kinda embarrassed and happy at same time. I used autolite plugs which was what was in stock at the time. If I would have researched even a little I would have learned these are garbage and could have spent $2 more each and waited a day or two for them. Had an old NGK in glove box (which i found shortly after buying the 6 autolites this spring) and seems like NGKs are ok to use... Oh and just ordered 5 bosch plugs which will be here monday. only $12 bucks the junk autolites were $10 so really a no brainer here I learned the hard way!!

Any opinions on the NGK? took a picture i figure its same or better than what they make today not sure how old but at least a few years... I'll put up front just in case... damn that #6 plug what a bitch!! 2nd time was a little easier and having the hood off and a shop light directly overhead is very nice compared to my usual style of farm repairs in the driveway!!

I'll try and get a video when I get new plugs in and crank for first time but not sure how this camera handles video... old 4mp digital I recently stepped on iPhone and not in the budget to replace as long as the volvo stays in the garage lol!!

happycamper
11-09-2013, 12:50 PM
Got another question while I'm waiting for these plugs to get here... so how bad is all the diesel that's sitting in cylinders? Is there a way or a reason to get it out while I have glowplugs off? Will it affect starting later other than smoke? Would it be bad Idea to crank engine to try and blow diesel out of holes? I have done this with 2 stroke gas engines when flooded but don't want to risk sucking anything in or anything either so please ignore my stupidity... just know theres been a lot of diesel squirted in cylinders without ignition from previous starting attempts. What about adding oil into cylinders to help seal the rings? Any advice is much appreciated!!

745 TurboGreasel
11-09-2013, 02:36 PM
Disconnect the glow relay, and the shutoff valve on the pump, and crank away.
Not sure about NGK, but I'd go for self regulating plugs like the Bosch Duraterm.

The diesel is oil in the cyls, and you won't get it all out, so job done.

Those VC gaskets are reusable, but you nave to be sure the shouldered studs in the head are fully seated, or it will leak. they like to back out some wile you remove the nut.

RedArrow
11-09-2013, 06:41 PM
So back to the glow plugs... Pulled em all out. All 6 are toast. So kinda embarrassed and happy at same time. Had an old NGK in glove box (which i found shortly after buying the 6 autolites this spring) and seems like NGKs are ok to use... Oh and just ordered 5 bosch plugs

I thought it is highly recommended to have the same exact (6) plugs for best results.
(?)

745 TurboGreasel
11-09-2013, 09:34 PM
For sure in a car like a TDI ALH where they are monitored by OBD, that spooky thing detects which one is failing going out before it even goes dark.
You also sertainly will not get good results mixing fast and slow plugs.

Interesting pic there. In my China/Prothe vs Bosch Duraterm comparison, I noticed the Chinas heated faster to glowing at the tip, while the Bosch ran a lower temp but heated 2/3 of the plug instead of just the tip.
Beru are supposed to be top notch too.
I'm guessing that is not your experiment?

happycamper
11-09-2013, 09:58 PM
Yeah think i got those they are 80010 bosch plugs.

happycamper
11-09-2013, 10:18 PM
Oh and thanks for the advice I saved the old gasket it seemed to be in good shape but just learned my lesson on my bus after doin first valve adjustment ever I reused the old gaskets... started dripping a little in a couple weeks then got way worse and burst after 3-4 weeks luckily i caught it as it happened (well the trail I followed back home as I left the store was kinda obvious in the rain... it was trippy man a rainbow followed me everywhere I went LOL)

RedArrow
11-10-2013, 08:05 AM
For sure in a car like a TDI ALH where they are monitored by OBD, that spooky thing detects which one is failing going out before it even goes dark.
You also sertainly will not get good results mixing fast and slow plugs.

Interesting pic there. In my China/Prothe vs Bosch Duraterm comparison, I noticed the Chinas heated faster to glowing at the tip, while the Bosch ran a lower temp but heated 2/3 of the plug instead of just the tip.
Beru are supposed to be top notch too.
I'm guessing that is not your experiment?

I didn`t take that pic myself, it was attached to illustrate those plugs in action. There was this td Volvo friend of us having issues with his newly installed Berus (2-3 of them burned out, short term, twice---?what`s wrong?) so we decided to use Bosch plugs for our 760s. (BTW, the Diesel shop advised against the Berus for some reason although they were more exp than Bosch...!?) Yeah, but Beru supposed to be perfect so I can blame him for punching his dashboard manual toggle-glow way too much when his pump lost prime at night. We got Bosch plugs and they worked perfectly. I don`t know part #s, it was centuries ago.
I will ask G about the plugs and order a set if I get the correct part #s.

745 TurboGreasel
11-10-2013, 02:20 PM
Mine are Bosch 80010 type, $8 from Rock Auto.

A guy on one of the truck forums wondered about the 'self regulating', so he left a duraterm going for 36 hours until he had to leave the house unattended, and it didn't burn out.

Early cars had slow plugs (and matched controller). Later, and many service replacements got the fast plugs.
Slow is like 2 minutes form freezing, fast about 30 seconds. Mostly the fast ones have a tapered tip.

v8volvo
11-10-2013, 03:28 PM
Bosch and Beru should both be good. I haven't seen Berus for the D24/old VW application but they probably exist. I don't see any reason to use anything other than Duraterms. Don't know about NGK's, Densos, etc; those are usually great brands for spark plugs and for Japanese diesels that they originally came in but Bosch is always a good choice where it was the OE setup. (IMO same goes for Isuzus and Mitsus etc that originally had Denso plugs -- I would use Densos there over Bosch).

I have seen Autolites and Champions have the tips get soft and swollen up in Volvos; I would use almost anything before I put one of those in....

happycamper
11-10-2013, 07:10 PM
So when I replaced the glow plugs the first time this spring/summer... One of them was completely missing the tip!! think it was long burnt up or got stuck inside head somewhere cause I never heard any rattling!! Think it had been gone a while... couldn't this really fuck your valves or something up?

745 TurboGreasel
11-10-2013, 08:17 PM
If it burns away, you are OK, if it falls apart, you can lose the motor. Nots times they knock for a minute, and blow the pieces out.
The dealer broke one off in the head of my friends TDI at no extra charge and it passed pretty successfully. No surprise just hoped for the best and didn't tell her... Pistons looked about the same, just filed em flat.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/tdi/IMG_3245.jpg

happycamper
11-10-2013, 09:36 PM
ouch that left a mark! Might have some of that goin on but would need a good enough excuse to pull the head off to find out! Glowplugs will be here in the morning... Oh shit it veterans day the guy prob didn't realize that when he ordered on saturday and told me monday mornin... hopefully they r here just thought of that as I was typing lol! Gettin anxious I hope ol Ronald will sing a song for me soon!

happycamper
11-11-2013, 06:04 PM
So please excuse the video quality. Absolute shit its all glitchy and is pretty painful to listen to. But the beast started. This was second attempt after getting bosch plugs in today. So happy, I hope you guys appreciate the video even though the quality is absolutely horrible! Ronald is alive! Thank you all so much not sure if I will get him out on the road tonight but will tomorrow 4 sure!! Oh and it was 44 deg F when I started him... :) shit I got an error trying to upload how do I upload video? does it have to be a link thru photo hosting site or something?? HELP!

happycamper
11-11-2013, 06:21 PM
my security tokens are missing... the precious... tokens...

745 TurboGreasel
11-11-2013, 11:11 PM
Save the tokin!

Your video probably has to be on youtube or photobucket type of place unless you can make it a .zip of 97.7 KB or less.

happycamper
11-12-2013, 08:12 AM
Ok so Ronald is up and running. Just did cold start this morning 45 deg NO ether. Didn't fire till 2nd crank but was being conservative on cranking time. Blows a lot of smoke for a couple mins then settles down but doesn't disappear.

Found a couple problems at IP. Getting a lot of little bubbles in return line. Especially when I start and they slow down after warming up but don't go completely away. When I give throttle the bubble seem to almost go away. Is this the input shaft seal you were talking about?

THe other issue is the IP is leaking. Pretty damn sure its coming out of the IP where the (head?) meets the main pump body. Its at the seam directly in front of where the Bosch VE #'s are located (think the 'head' part might be steel and body of pump aluminum...? leaking between the two) I am getting just over a drip per second which ends up being a small puddle in garage after a few minutes!! Now can either of these issues be addressed without removing the pump??

I got video of the bubbles in the clear return line I'll try and get it posted at a remote location and post a link here... Thanks guys!!

happycamper
11-12-2013, 09:00 AM
Ok so gonna try and post links to video. On photobucket they have different link types... one is for forums/boards is this what I want to use to link it? Also a direct link type... here is direct

http://s950.photobucket.com/user/Ross_Glaser/media/DSCN1957_zps45706912.mp4.html

here is IMG code

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/th_DSCN1957_zps45706912.jpg (http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/DSCN1957_zps45706912.mp4)

Have 2 other videos on there of blow-by and bubbles in return line oh and the quality wasnt' as bad as when I viewed with quicktime on my computer!

happycamper
11-12-2013, 09:05 AM
Heres the bubbles... sorry wouldn't focus up close like this but you can still kinda see how many are comin thru...

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/th_DSCN1958_zps39f5bcf3.jpg (http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/DSCN1958_zps39f5bcf3.mp4)

happycamper
11-12-2013, 09:07 AM
And here is a video of the blow-by.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/th_DSCN1959_zps9e65ed15.jpg (http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/Ross_Glaser/DSCN1959_zps9e65ed15.mp4)

anders
11-12-2013, 10:39 AM
The bubbles might be coming from the input shaft seal, one way yo easily confirm it or not is to put a electric inline pump before the filter. You could also be pulling air from any of the supply fittings.
The leak from the injection pump could be from the dynamic advance piston cover. I have never seen an VE pump leak where the head meets the body. I have fixed three from leaking dynamic piston covers. You will need to remove the pump to re-seal that though.

v8volvo
11-12-2013, 11:41 AM
I have had them leak from the head seal, though this does seem to be a much more frequent issue on newer TDI pumps than on Volvos. My '83 760 is off the road right now because of a dumping head seal, though, so it does happen.

Sounds like your hard start and rough run afterwards is probably due to the pump leaking and losing prime, but checking pump and cam timing and valve clearance would still be a good idea as well, since those are other common causes.

Congrats getting it running!

745 TurboGreasel
11-12-2013, 03:02 PM
I've had to change the pump head o-ring, and it can be done on the car.
I also changed an input seal on the motor, and it was super easy not in the car. I think you could do it at least on a 700 by jacking up the back of the tranny, but it might not be worth the sturggle vs removing and retiming the pump.

For the pump head, read this thread, and understand it fully before you begin.

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5311&sid=07accd2e9cfc0dbeef106da43a7ce6ed&start=15

v8volvo
11-12-2013, 05:40 PM
I have heard of people doing the head O-ring on the car, I would think it would be a little scary and probably messy, but sounds like it was not that bad? Ngoma and I did a couple on the bench some years back using a similar method (masking tape around the head, cut old seal and stretch new one on w/o pulling head all the way off) but have a lot easier access with the pump sitting on a table.

Don't you think that in theory you could remove the pump, replace shaft seal, and reinstall on the motor, without having to re-time it, if you took bracket off with it? With all the tools I think it would still be faster to take pump off separate and then re-time because dealing with those bracket bolts behind the IP is such a hassle, but if you didn't have the tools (and knew it was already in time), I think you could get away with it...

ngoma
11-12-2013, 09:53 PM
Don't you think that in theory you could remove the pump, replace shaft seal, and reinstall on the motor, without having to re-time it, if you took bracket off with it?
As long as we are talking theory here:

What about the elongated bolt holes in the bracket, used to adjust belt tension? If you don't reproduce the exact same position on the reinstall wouldn't that affect timing?

745 TurboGreasel
11-13-2013, 06:00 AM
Yes, but you'd probably tension it pretty close to the same.

I think I could do the head seal on car in 20 min after a practice run.
there is some patience, and counting of screw-turns, but it isn't really hard or scary.some have even lucked out,and had surface tension hold the little washer in place without running the bolt down the middle, but I know at least one person lunched a pump that way, and I would not do it without the counter bolt.

My technique on the timing was set the motor at TDC,so I can get the lock pin in,then clip the belt to both pulleys, then remove the pump pulley. It's keyed and only goes on one way. with the pump pulley off, you could then remove the pump without moving the bracket. the pin has enough slop, I do't think taking the bracket off will help anything, a pencil mark will do fine.
I guess I have the right wrenches, because I seem to take the bracket off about half the time anyway.

happycamper
11-13-2013, 08:18 AM
I have never been inside of one of these pumps and this procedure seems kinda freaky without having another pump to do a practice run off the car... Do I want to order the 17mm input shaft seal I found on ebay? like $15 I think...

Also looking at just buying the timing tool... any recommendations?? I need to get that front timing belt replaced anyways so think I might as well bite the bullet and get 2 birds stoned at once here ;)

Drove Ronald around last night... after 3-4 months of driving a stock single port bus he seemed a little faster than I remembered!! lol Ran great but definitely losing prime overnight... This is obviousely what led to my hard starting which led to ether abuse and on and on... glad I am on the right track now!! Thanks so much you guys it is so nice to just have a little support to give me the confidence to wade into unexplored territory!

happycamper
11-13-2013, 08:28 AM
Oh and which head seal o-ring is it? Is the 4 cyl one different than 6 cyl? Just says ve pump head seal VW so am worried it would be for a 4 cyl ve pump...? Will prob wait till friday to order anything

happycamper
11-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Ok so I found VE pump seal kit bosch # 1 467 010 059 it says 4,5,6 cyl mechanical VE pumps looks like it covers a lot of different makes of cars... shipped from UK for around $25 does this sound right?? Figured for the price of the two seals separately I could get a whole seal kit! Is this what I should order?

745 TurboGreasel
11-13-2013, 05:56 PM
17 MM input for non-TDI VW, all head seals are the same.
this DGK126 is the kit you want
http://sto00.mailcar.net/catalog/index.php?seller=sam_the_diesel_man&mode=s&schm=1&cLink=c&main_page=product_info&products_id=261038669847

You might want to check about availabliity before ordering from her. ebay seller Angelofishes also has the same kit. You may ask either one to substitute a 17MM shaft seal, or go to an industrial or bearing supplier and get a
"17x28x7mm" viton double lip rotary shaft seal" Equivalent to CR/SKF 6611(metal outer) 6614(full rubber coating) .
or Bosch PN 1 460 283 312 17x28x7.3

Anything more that $12 is a rip off.

For the pump kit, I'd accept Bosch or SPACO, not sure about any other brand.

ngoma
11-13-2013, 06:45 PM
I think I could do the head seal on car in 20 min after a practice run.
there is some patience, and counting of screw-turns, but it isn't really hard or scary.some have even lucked out,and had surface tension hold the little washer in place without running the bolt down the middle, but I know at least one person lunched a pump that way, and I would not do it without the counter bolt.
Agreed. Cleanliness, turn screws in equal small increments, as well as the counter bolt, the counter bolt giving piece of mind.


I guess I have the right wrenches, because I seem to take the bracket off about half the time anyway.
What wrenches do you use? Gearwrenches?

Also: How do you get the pulley off while the IP is still mounted to the engine in-car?

ngoma
11-13-2013, 07:00 PM
Good info above on the input shaft seal. Thanks, 745 TurboGreasel!

Be aware that replacing the input shaft seal may be a short-lived solution, if the shaft bushing has worn oblong (usually because of previous excessive IP belt tension). The excessive shaft runout will cause the new seal to fail.

So far happycamper, you are at hi-press head seal, and input shaft seal. Better to remove the IP for these projects. Is there a way you can measure input shaft runout to get a better idea of the bushing condition?

Yes, timing belt change requires timing tools, camshaft positioning tool, crankshaft bolt torque multiplier, and crank pulley lock holder. Sorry my terminology is off, don't have the patience to research correct tool names at the moment.

v8volvo
11-13-2013, 10:42 PM
Yes, timing belt change requires timing tools, camshaft positioning tool, crankshaft bolt torque multiplier, and crank pulley lock holder.

IMO you really have to also have a camshaft sprocket counterhold tool of some kind -- without it setting cam and pump timing right on is way more of a hassle and you risk hurting the belt if you let it absorb forces while torquing the bolts. A generic or TDI tool is fine on the front sprocket; on the back the genuine Volvo 9995199 tool or a home-made copy of it is about the only thing I know of that will work if the engine is in the car (240 especially) due to tight clearance.

I'm pretty certain I used a DGK-121 last time I needed a seal kit, what's the difference between the 121 and 126? I do remember having to get the 17mm shaft seal separate, the 121 kit also came with a 20mm seal.

745 TurboGreasel
11-13-2013, 11:06 PM
What wrenches do you use? Gearwrenches?

Also: How do you get the pulley off while the IP is still mounted to the engine in-car?
Gearwrenches? Yes, both floppy and straight, and a harbor freight stubby.
How do you get the pulley off? pry equally from 2-3 sides(wide screwdriver or wood chisel), brass hammer. apply pressure, then tap to release taper bond.
If you pry from only one side, it will be ruined. I think you could get the TDI style cam pulley puller in there if you really wanted to.



I'm pretty certain I used a DGK-121 last time I needed a seal kit, what's the difference between the 121 and 126? I do remember having to get the 17mm shaft seal separate, the 121 kit also came with a 20mm seal.

121 is the turbo kit, having an LDA seal, but doesn't have the earlier VW cold start stuff, not sure what version of that a 240 has.

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11314

v8volvo
11-13-2013, 11:07 PM
My technique on the timing was set the motor at TDC,so I can get the lock pin in,then clip the belt to both pulleys, then remove the pump pulley. It's keyed and only goes on one way. with the pump pulley off, you could then remove the pump without moving the bracket. the pin has enough slop, I do't think taking the bracket off will help anything, a pencil mark will do fine.
I guess I have the right wrenches, because I seem to take the bracket off about half the time anyway.

Yeah, getting the pump and bracket off certainly is not impossible, just irritating since there's a lot of stuff for your wrench to run into... I also have never met one that couldn't be removed, but I got tired enough of fighting that battle that I finally got the skinny puller tool for yanking the sprocket off with pump in car. :p

I think the part that sucks isn't so much getting the pump off, but getting it back on the motor with it still mounted to bracket -- trying to get the two upper bolts started with the pump body right in the way, and then you have to go thru the whole belt tension routine which takes a few tries unless you get really lucky. I much prefer pulling pump on its own then being able to just drop it back in and have everything go back the way it was before... (edit: saves having to mess with the glow plug buss too!)

Slightly different tension wouldn't appreciably affect timing -- I think I experimented with it once and loosening belt meant slightly more advance, tightening a little less advance, but the differences were minute, ~.01mm or thereabouts.

v8volvo
11-13-2013, 11:21 PM
Gearwrenches? Yes, both floppy and straight, and a harbor freight stubby.

You're saying you have been able to get the box ends of those wrenches down over the bolt heads on the upper two bolts behind the pump? I don't think I have ever been able to fit them in there. I guess even if I did, I would be worried about winding the bolt out far enough that it trapped the wrench since the ratchet goes only one way. (On my set anyway, maybe you have the type with two-directional ratchet.)

How do you get the pulley off? pry equally from 2-3 sides(wide screwdriver or wood chisel), brass hammer. apply pressure, then tap to release taper bond.
If you pry from only one side, it will be ruined. I think you could get the TDI style cam pulley puller in there if you really wanted to.

I have only ever had the guts to do the screwdriver method on a pump that I knew I wasn't planning to use again. I don't think that little thrust flange on the driveshaft was really designed with the idea of handling that kind of force, though I guess I have never heard of one that broke so maybe I'm just overcautious...

Unfortunately the TDI puller doesn't even come close (3 jaw ALH style is all wrong and 2 jaw AHU/1Z type has pegs that are too fat and spaced too far apart) -- you can believe that I tried both, as well as a couple other options, before I spent the money on the Volvo tool. ;) Problem is getting something slim enough to fit between pump gear and firewall -- on almost everything, even if you can get one with jaws sized and spaced right, the head of the forcing screw runs into the firewall. I think it would not be too difficult to modify another puller to work, but it is a pretty specialized application and I don't think it would be easy to find something that would do the job right off the shelf, other than the OE 9995204.

745 TurboGreasel
11-13-2013, 11:59 PM
You have to use the open end till you can move it around some. I don't have any of the bi'direction type wrenches. mostly I reach under the pump and up.


a whole lot of force is not needed, especially if you set up some vibration with a 'tap'.

2 prong puller sort of like this http://www.acmachining.com/wp-content/uploads/wp-checkout/images/tdi-cam-gear-puller.jpg I made one from a picture online, but don't recall seeing the actual VW tool. mine is 2 large bolts with ground down heads that are put through the pulley holes, and rotated to lock, then the force screw is turned.

I can't find the picture now.

RedArrow
01-15-2014, 05:40 PM
Meet Ronald Reagan my 244 D24....Ok so I found VE pump seal kit ... Is this what I should order?

How`s the President? :o) Running again?